Is There Going To Be a Rapture?

[hymnsinger]

Here is another subject that is sometimes hotly contested.
Not necessarily whether it is going to happen but when.

There are pre-, mid, and post tribulation beliefs.

Myself, I hold to the pre-trib rapture because "what would be the purpose of the rapture if it doesn't remove us from tribulation."
Logically, it doesn't make sense to have a "catching away" of the saints if they have to endure the wrath to come.
I have not included scripture because we all use the same passages. We just interpret them differently.

In His service
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[smiley4jc]

I have heard some say we are currently in the Tribulation.  I find that hard to swallow because there are still some prophecies to be fulfilled.  I don't know how they explain that.

I have never heard a real, live person say they believe in the mid-Trib view so I don't know.  I've only read it described in books.

I, personally, believe in the pre-Trib rapture.  I'm thinking of a writing by Tim LaHaye that explains this view quite well but at the moment I can't remember which of my books it's in.

I do have a question, though.  What should we say to people who know just enough Bible to make the foolish statement, "Well, I'll just wait until after the rapture 'cause I can still get saved then."  I mean, I try to tell them how awful it will be to go through that period of time and why would you want to do that?  If you can't get right with God now because of 'this' or 'that' getting in the way, what makes them think they will have the strength to keep a walk with God when it almost definitely means you will pay for your faith with your life?  Do you have anything to add, HS?

smiley

[hymnsinger]

I tell them that if they are Jewish, then that is OK. But, I believe that the age of the Gentiles started at Pentecost and ends at the rapture.

The tribulation is the seventieth week of years of Daniels prophecy and is for the Jews to do 7 things. "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy." (Dan 9:24 NKJV)
The final one is to accept Jesus as the Messiah.

These "weeks," however, are not seven-day weeks, but each"week" represents seven years. Thus, 70 weeks of years equals 490 years. We are now in the parenthetical period where the 69th year stopped at the cross (Dan 9:26) and will start again after the rapture.

I believe the fate of Gentiles that refuse Christ is "and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thess 2:10-12).
And during the tribulation they will vehemently deny Christ because of this strong delusion, even to the point where "...they gnawed their tongues because of the pain. They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds." (Rev 16:10, 11.)

In His service
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[smiley4jc]

Forgive me if I'm being dense, but are you saying that you believe that no Gentile will have the opportunity or the inclination to accept Christ and receive Salvation after the rapture?  I have heard some preachers say that The Holy Spirit will be taken from the world after the rapture.  Since it's The Holy Spirit that draws us to God, I've always wondered how that (Salvation) was going to work/come about.  Of course, Mr. LaHaye and Mr. Jenkins, authors of The Left Behind Series, put forth that there will be those who will realize The Truth and accept Salvation after the rapture.  What's your take?

smiley 

[hymnsinger]

Then my question would be, "who is He sending the strong delusion to?" (2 Thess 2:10, 11) Not Israel, that's the Father's bride.
In my studying the Bible I find only one reason for the tribulation and that is for God's chosen people - Israel. Daniel's prophecy.
The Gentiles I believe have an invitation to be grafted into the family of God for a short period of time. (Rom 11:11 onward)
We call it this parenthetical period the "Church age", "The age of grace", "the time of the Gentiles", etc. It is from Pentecost (Acts ch. 2) til the rapture (1 Thess 4:13-17)

In His service
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[smiley4jc]

I read the whole 11th chapter of Romans.  What Paul is saying is that Jesus (salvation) was brought first to the Jews, God's Chosen People and they rejected him.  Through that rejection the Gentiles were then given the chance at Salvation through Christ.  Paul states that this might cause some jealousy among the Chosen and therefore might bring a few back into "the fold".  If such happens, Praise God!  This is present time...or rather from then until now...this age of grace, as you put it.  The Tribulation, post-rapture of The Church, is the time when Israel has it's chance, again, just as the Gentiles had their chance during the age of grace.   To use Paul's example, they (Jews) were the original "tree" from the Holy Root.  We (Gentiles) were grafted in and became just as good (holy) as the original branches, again because of the Holy Root.  During the Tribulation, the original branches will again be grafted in, so to speak, and once again become part of The Tree.  Holy Root = Holy Branches regardless of where they come from.

Am I getting this now?

I think you might be nodding your head in affirmation so I'm gonna go a bit further with some speculation.  (oh goody, Bro says..... )

Ok...we all agree because of scripture that there will plenty of "church folk";, as well as just plain lost souls, who will not be caught up in the rapture.

Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

But...that doesn't mean those people had not HEARD The Truth.  Will it be possible for a person who realizes what has taken place (rapture) and who understands the error of his/her ways, repents and cries out for forgiveness to be saved AFTER the rapture?  Not a Jew...but a Gentile.  Could there be any more "wild olive branches" grafted into The Tree during the Tribulation?

Of course, part of me wants to believe this is so but then part of me thinks, "Hey...you had your chance and you didn't get it right"  But, isn't the Tribulation the Last of the Last Chances, as well as a time of judgement?

smiley   

[hymnsinger]

It is my belief that if you're still here after the rapture, you should be very concerned.
But, if you are concerned, then you must believe in Christ and you should have been raptured.
I always tell people that ask me if I am sure that I am going to heaven "Yes, but I am concerned about it."
Why should anyone be concerned? Because there are caveats that say in the end time Jesus will either say: "Well done, good and faithful servant" or "Begone, I never knew you."

Anyone who has deluded themselves into thinking they will get to heaven because they are a good person or just as good as the person sitting next to them in church, could be in for a surprise.

I think that if you wonder about your salvation, you are probably saved. Because the lost, the goats as it were, don't care if they are saved or not.

As for why I believe that if you are not raptured and you are not Jewish at the rapture, you will be given a strong delusion.

John has been given a second look at the rapture. The first being at the mount of transfiguration [Mat 16:28 - 17:5; Luke 9:28-30]
John has again been given a preview of the rapture in Revelation 4:1. "After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, 'Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.'"  You will notice the end where he is told that these thing will be shown him after the rapture. From this chapter and verse until chapter 19 verse 11 will be for the Israelites to fulfill Daniel 9:24-27.

The gates of heaven will open twice. Once here to allow the church into the presence of the bridegroom, and again in Rev 19:11.
The first opening we are called up to be with Him. Jesus does not come down. The Rapture!
The second time heaven opens, Jesus does come down. This IS the second coming.

He will be riding a white horse, not the foul of a donkey as at His first advent. And unlike the imitator in Rev 6:2, who had a bow with no arrows and a crown had to be given to him. Jesus has many crowns on His head and a sword from His mouth that created the universe.
"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." [Heb 4:12]

The King of kings and the Lord of lords rides to rescue the world He died for!

"The earth is the Lord's, and all its fullness, The world and those who dwell therein." [Psa 24:1]

In His service
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[Rick]

smiley writes...
are you saying that you believe that no Gentile will have the opportunity or the inclination
to accept Christ and receive Salvation after the rapture?




The fifth seal judgment of Revelation 6:9-11 describes the souls of those martyred during the Tribulation
?because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained.?

There is also two witnesses to prophecy...I am not sure about the 144,000

Which you probably already knew


Rick

[hymnsinger]

Interesting point, Rick. I find Revelation so confusing with the symbolic imagery and not being in chronological order for an end time book.

"When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?' Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed." [Rev 6:9-11]

It would appear that these are martyrs in the early days of the tribulation. They are each given a white robe.  But, I find it very confusing that the dead are questioning the Lord.

Quite possibly, in the tribulation with all the saints already raptured that the souls of the dead people can converse with and even question God.

It is quite obvious that the 144,000 [Rev 7:4] are of the tribes of Israel. They are the original Jehovah's Witnesses. The Israelites.

It is interesting that the tribe of Dan is missing. Why? Is there a logical reason or a prophecy being fulfilled? I can find where Dan was idolatrous in Lev 24:11; Judges 18; 1 Kings 12:28, 29. Could that be it? Why is he singled out?

"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!' All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: 'Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen.' Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, 'Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?' And I said to him, 'Sir, you know.' So he said to me, 'These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'" [Rev 7:9-17]

In the first verse, it would appear that all nations would or should include the gentiles. I find that hard to explain and impossible to reconcile that to Daniels prophecy.

It could possibly be talking about the Jews and part Jews in foreign countries that die for the Truth. The great multitudes are quite possibly the ones mentioned in chapter 6 that are given white robes. Here it is approaching the millennium as it is after the three and a half year great tribulation.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." [Rev 20:4-6]

There is no mention of white robes, but I can only speculate that if they died for their witness to Jesus that they must be the same group.

But there is comfort in knowing that if you are born twice, you die once and if you are born once you will die twice.

In His service
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