Is Tongues Necessary, or a Sign, for Salvation?

[hymnsinger]

The controversy starts in Mark 16 when the Word states "And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.'" (Mark 16:15-18 NKJV)
Then in Acts "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, 'Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?'"
Now there are some that will say that this is OTHER TONGUES not an unlearned, unknown tongue. as in other passages. But, the Strong's Greek Concordance defines this scripture as G1100. glossa, gloce'-sah; of uncert. affin.; the tongue; by impl. a language (spec. one naturally unacquired):
Then as the disciples expand their territory as Jesus commanded in 1:8 they heard the Jews, the Samaritans, and the Gentiles speak in tongues as they did when they received the Holy Spirit. (Acts 10:46; 19:6) and possibly 8:18 when Simon the sorcerer witnessed something other than miracles and quite possibly the speaking in tongues and glorifying God as in other parts of Acts.
Just because the speaking in tongues was NOT mentioned every time that saints were saved does not mean it didn't happen. It would be redundant for Luke to repeat "they spoke in tongues" every time 3000 or 5000 people were saved.
In 1 Corinthians Paul expands on speaking in tongues. It appears to come in diverse forms: praying, singing and speaking for interpretation. (ch 12-14)
It is an Unknown, unlearned language that NO man understands yet can interpret by the Holy Spirit.
I am interested in your responses.
In His service
>< ))/*>

[smiley4jc]

Great question, Bro.

I do believe in speaking in tongues.  I believe that if I were in a foreign country or if I came in contact with someone who did not speak English, if the Lord wanted me to witness to this person He would bless me with the tongue that person(s) understood.  I also believe in what my mother-in-law calls a "heavenly language"  That language which only Father, Son and Holy Ghost understand and which can only be interpreted by power of The Holy Spirit.  I believe messages can be given in tongues but should only be given when an interpretation can be given either by that person or someone else around.  I believe I can pray personally in tongues to my God and only He can understand my prayer.  This, again, is by the power of The Spirit, where even I don't know what to ask and I yield to His power.

My question to you involves the fact that my dad does not...or has not...believed in tongues.  When I first received Baptism of the Holy Ghost and I shared this event with them I was told that was only done in the days of the early church for their benefit and such as that.  I know different but that is what mom and dad believed.  Through the years I am realizing that Dad is learning more about The Holy Spirit.  I also suspect that he has not yet received the gift of The Holy Ghost, nor spoken in tongues.  I have no doubt that my parents are saved...but....I don't think they are quite believing in the full work of The Holy Spirit nor believing in tongues.  What say you on this subject, Brother?

smiley   

[hymnsinger]

What say I? Well, I could go through my whole debate or I could just copy and paste excerpts from a debate I had on another forum recently.
There are gaps as one person, who replied all in CAPS removed his posts and the names have been changes to no1, no2, no3.

So here goes.
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Post by No1* on January 29, 2009 at 11:50pm
   Ok...me, being an apostolic pentecostal, have been "saved" since I was 8...My definition of being saved is receiving the gift of the holy ghost(with the evidence of speaking in tongues; as found in Acts 2) and being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins (as preached in Acts 2:38) I was raised in the church, and I believed in Jesus and that he could do anything. I've believed that since I was a baby. But I don't think that is being saved. Being "saved" can easily take one prayer, but I believe that prayer should consist in receiving the holy ghost and speaking in tongues. I believe you must be baptized in Jesus name. This has been preached in the Apostolic doctrine since bible times. Mostly in Acts. But speaking in tongues and being baptized in the one and only name of Jesus is found all in the bible. As I said before, there are different views of this topic according to what dinomination and beliefs you represent.
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Reply by Post by No2** on January 30, 2009 at 12:36am
 Then there is this:
 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
 I think many of us put too many (of our) conditions on Salvation....We were given it freely. We were not required to speak in tounges. Paul CLEARLY say's that not all speak in tounges. It IS NOT a requirement. It keeps re-uccuring to me that Jesus said, "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotton Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES should not perish, but have everlasting life." The price has been paid. It is free. Is it not true that the only cost is, to'believe in Jesus Christ? Revelation 22:17 say's,
 ?Come!? And let him who hears say, ?Come!? And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely." What does FREE mean? How much does FREE cost? I often think of the parable of the man who was forgiven the great debt, then went out and threw the man who owed him a small debt into prison. I try to remember this when I am putting my own conditions on the gift of salvation. I have been thinking that is is our job to just help lead people to the free gift. Then it is between them and Jesus, what the cost is. It aint my job to judge or lay guilt on someone else.
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Reply by Post by hymnsinger on January 30, 2009 at 4:01am
I'm sorry. Where in the Bible did Paul CLEARLY say "not all speak in tongues?"
Myself, I do not believe that speaking in tongues is required for salvation.
But, a point could be made that it is a sign that you are saved.
Myself, yes I speak in tongues! And tongues, according to scripture is NOT a foreign language.
"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries." (1 Cor 14:2)
I think scripture is clear that speaking in tongues is a Spiritual language that can only be interpreted by the Holy Spirit. A foreign language can be understood by someone and that would be contrary to scripture. So if your tongues is understood by anyone without being interpreted by the Holy Spirit it is FAKE. Stop it!

I agree that saying a sinners prayer does not save you because there are thousands at Billy Graham crusades that get caught up in the hype and the seed is sown by the wayside or on stony ground (Matt 13:4-6).
If your salvation depended on a prayer who would you say it to. Jesus? "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (John 6:44a)
The Father? "'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'" (John 14:6) Therefore you must be filled with the Holy Spirit to pray to the Father in the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
I think it is plain that man cannot save himself and it is purely the work of God. Born again or born from above means being made Spiritually ALIVE again. When Adam sinned we became Spiritually dead until Jesus paid for our sin with His death. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom 6:23)
I believe that we can become born again, "made alive, even though we were dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1, 5)
My testimony is that I was born again the moment I was witnessed to by my friend. I wanted to know more about Jesus (the Spirit always points us to Jesus), I read the NT from Matt to Rev and then read it again and it seemed so clear because I believe that I was infilled with the Holy Spirit and I never said the sinners prayer to that point.
I did so later because my friend insisted that I do so. I never felt any different after repeating those words after him. I never had any more insight than I did after he first witnessed to me. "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." (John 7:38) and they did as he witnessed to me.
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh.." (Acts 2:17) and these are the last days and I believe that the Spirit was poured out on me without uttering a word.
In His service
>< ))/*>
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Reply by Post by No1* on January 30, 2009 at 10:00pm
Back in the ancient times, the greek difinition of believe is to give yourself wholly too...Just praying a pray and saying I believe in Jesus isn't giving myself wholly too God...yes I know some people aren't like that, but this has become the sterotype of a "saved" christian....John 3:18 says they SHOULD not perish...he didn't say SHALL, so there is a possiblity...If speaking in tongues was not required, then why did God allow the day of pentecost happen? Just to give people an odd topic to preach about? Obviously there must be some meaning in it....Why would have Peter preached about it? Yes you must believe to get to heaven, but the bible also states you must be born again of WATER, and of SPIRIT, before you can see the kingdom of God. How are you born in the spirit? What is the spirit? the spirit is the Holy Ghost, and to be born again in the spirit is to receive the Holy ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues...speaking of being saved is Free, the holy ghost is free...There's no price...it is a gift, as preached in Acts 2:38....As I said before, this is a very controversal subject...thank you for speaking you thoughts!
God bless
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Reply by Post by hymnsinger on January 31, 2009 at 10:13pm
 I believe that God reversed what He did in Genesis 11 when He confused man's language.
By doing the opposite in having everyone speak in other tongues and be understood by different races was a definite sign it was God's doing. The thing is the speaker may not have understood what he said but by the Holy Spirit all the people that heard them could.
"And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." (Acts2:4 NKJV) I believe it would have sounded like a cacophony of babbling worshipers with everyone speaking at once. (scripture doesn't say the took turns)
"And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language." (Acts 2:5,6 NKJV)
 The Galileans, Parthians, Medes, and Elamites, probably heard everyone speak the same thing in the same language at the same time in ONE ACCORD. To hear the 120 speaking in different languages would be ludicrous. The different nations would not have been able to pick out their language from the din created by all the others.
Hope this helps
In His service
>< ))/*>
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Reply by Post by No3*** on January 31, 2009 at 11:18pm
   Sounds like you believe that tongues are required to be saved....and if tongues did not take place until Acts 2...then Abraham, Moses, David, and all the other old testament believers were not saved.
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Reply by Post by No3*** on January 31, 2009 at 11:21pm
   Why are you so mean spirited? Why yell at people? You will never convince anyone with yelling. I get a sense of hatred from you, rather than love. I do have to ask..WHY are you a part of this website? What is your purpose for being here?
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Reply by Post by hymnsinger on January 31, 2009 at 11:27pm
 Our young sister from the Apostolic Pentecostal church does NOT preach a different doctrine. It may be different from yours but it has a lot of credibility.
You are still yelling. Please turn off your caps lock.
 I have written on many forums on speaking in tongues and many still have closed minds.
 Let me say really loud THE BIBLE TEACHES SPEAKING IN AN UNKNOWN, UNLEARNED LANGUAGE called tongues.
 If you deny that, then YOU my brother are of a different doctrine than that taught by Paul (Gal 1:6-10). because Paul plainly taught speaking in (unknown, unlearned) tongues in 1 Corinthians, chapters 12 & 14.
 Let's not go pointing fingers at different denominations if they teach the salvation message, evidenced by tongues as stated in Mark 16 and referred to by Luke in the Book of Acts, or not.
 Whenever a different territory was entered that Jesus mentioned in Acts 1:8 the salvation of the first individuals was evidenced by speaking in tongues. It would be redundant to say that "they spoke in tongues" when only making cursory mention of 3000 and 5000 being saved. Or if others were saved in Judea, Samaria, or the gentiles in the ends of the earth it would not have to be mentioned again only that there was evidence of being saved by speaking in tongues and glorifying God as a sign.
 "And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered," (Acts 10:45-46 NKJV)
 The Disciples knew the Holy Spirit was poured out by the evidence of speaking in tongues. No need to mention the evidence again, but only say that others were saved.
"And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." (Acts 19:6) Different territory and different people but the salvation came with the same evidence that the Disciples recognized.
 I re-iterate that I don't believe you have to speak in tongues to be saved but that if you are saved you have the ability to display the evidence (of receiving the Holy Spirit) by speaking in tongues (heavenly language) and magnifying God.
 This my brother is NOT a different doctrine then taught by Paul. It was taught by Paul.
In His service
>< ))/*>
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Reply by Post by No1* on February 1, 2009 at 3:55am
   Back then, Jesus had not yet paid the price for us on the cross...therefore, the only way for them to have forgiveness is to bring a sacrfice once a year to be slain and burnt....After Jesus died on the cross in Luke, the price was paid...he told his disciples to preach His word and baptize them in the name OF the Father, son and Holyghost (Jesus)...As Peter preached in Acts chapter 2, he preached with God's annointing, and like a mighty wind, the Holy ghost was received by everyone in the upper room with evidence of speaking in tongues
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Reply by Post by No3*** on February 1, 2009 at 8:08pm
so does that mean they were saved by different means? how were they saved?
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Reply by Post by No3*** on February 1, 2009 at 8:10pm
Question. That day Peter preached to a great crowd and several thousand were saved. How were they saved? No mention of that crowd speaking in tongues.
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Reply by Post by hymnsinger on February 1, 2009 at 8:29pm
I believe that I answered your questions already.
It would be redundant to continually repeat the process of knowing how they knew these persons were saved.
They spoke in tongues and glorified God. Amen!
Read Hebrews ch 11 about how we received the promise but not the old testament saints for your other answer.
In His service
>< ))/*>
+++++++++++++++++++++++

Not my finest hour but there you have it. I think I got my point across.
In His service
>< ))/*>

[smiley4jc]

reply coming soon...been studying this out for the past 4 days...driving hubby crazy asking questions...yup...talked to Pastor a bit.  Don't have time today to make my reply.  I had to make sure I knew what I thought I knew and it was based on The Word.  Check tomorrow morning...........................................

smiley   

[smiley4jc]

Okie dokie.....here goes:

I started from the beginning:  I found all the different Greek words for "tongue" and "tongues" in the New Testament.  I  figured out which word would be used for the "tongues" we are talking about, which supports whoever that was that posted about the greek word "glossa" and double-checked that with Pastor.  Ok...In some scriptures "glossa" refers to the actual tongue:" James 1:26; James 3:5,6,8, to name a few.   I believe that Acts 2:11 is speaking of the apostles speaking in regular, foreign languages so that all the people around could understand.

 Act 2:11  Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

he?meteroshay-met'-er-os
From G2349; our. (Or your by a different reading.): - our, your [by a different reading].
   G2349 - thne?tos
         thnay-tos'
         From G2348; liable to die: - mortal (-ity).  (mortal tongue)
Am I stretching here?

Anyhow....Then, all through Rev. when "glossa" is used it would be referring to foreign language:

Rev 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Now, having established which word is used and what it means...a certain really smart person once taught me to take everything in it's context... ...which is why it's taken me so long to get this posted.  I read all the scriptures concerning tongues IN context of verses in which they were included.  And..........

On the day of Pentecost, the disciples were filled with The Holy Ghost and spoke in"other tongues".

heteroshet'-er-os
Of uncertain affinity; (an-, the) other or different: - altered, else, next (day), one, (an-) other, some, strange.

Back to Acts 2:11 where the people said we hear them speaking in "our" tongues (languages).  Then, Peter stands up and starts speaking.  Was he speaking in his own language or still speaking in tongues?  Scripture doesn't say but if we are to assume that everyone understood him and if Scripture has already said that there were, "dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5), then we must assume Peter was still speaking in tongues...which every man heard in his own language.  Why?

1Co 14:22  Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

(stick with me, here....I'm think I'm going somewhere that I didn't even know I was going when I got here....)

At the end of Peter's "sermon" the question is asked:
Act 2:37  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

The Holy Spirit is present, we know, by the evidence of speaking in tongues.  As hymnsinger said, The Holy Ghost is the One who leads us to salvation, so the people asked what they were to do?  The answer...
Act 2:38  Then Peter said unto them,  (1) Repent, and (2) be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and (3) ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is an integral part of Salvation...everyone receives Him when they are saved.  He's there knocking before they are saved....Rev 3:20  "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me"  You ask Him in, He comes in and you are saved.  If we believe in a Triune God then you can't have one without the other.  You have received "the gift of The Holy Ghost"

But...there are more gifts....
1Co 12:1  Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:2  Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
1Co 12:3  Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:4  Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5  And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6  And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7  But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8  For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9  To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11  But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

I believe that the gift of tongues is available to every person who is saved...but we have to be open to receive those gifts.

Jas 4:2  Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Jas 4:3  Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

In 1 Cor. 12, Paul speaks of The Church being as a body with different parts, members.  Each 'member' has a purpose.  Then he asks,
1Co 12:29  Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30  Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

I believe now, that when a person is saved, they have access to all the gifts of The Spirit.  It's like having a tool bag at your disposal with any tool you will ever need for any job you might ever do.  Kind of like a "when you join our club we're going to give you this really cool gift".  If I am in a situation where wisdom is called for, all I have to do is ask The Father and The Holy Spirit gives it to me.  If I'm in a situation where healing is called for, I ask and it is granted through The Holy Spirit.  If tongues is called for, ask and it is given.  If we are continually walk IN The Spirit, then we will not ask amiss.

I am reminded of a topic just discussed where I found out that some persons in the Christian population like to pick and choose how they interpret which scriptures (women in the church... )  There are denomination who have belittled speaking in tongues, then there are others who have elevated speaking in tongues to a necessity.  Again, as I was taught by a very wise person, everything should be taken in context and the correct perspective.  The Word says that speaking in tongues is for the non-believer.  (see above)  If a person is doing a lot of witnessing, then they might be speaking in tongues a lot more than someone who is more involved with church administration, say, a deacon, or Sunday school teacher.  Everyone has a place in The Body and a "set of tools" they use most for their job. But we all have access to the same tool bag, same tools.  All we have to do is ask and make our selves open to receive.

As for the scripture everyone always uses to get this discussion going:
Mar 16:17&nbsp; And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18  They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

When we speak in tongues (use that particular tool) then non-believers know we are members of The Club...We are Believers in The One God Who Is The Only One Who Gives That Particular Tool.  When we cast out devils it's the same.  Remember, Jesus told the Pharisees that Satan doesn't cast out his own demons...the house divided cannot stand?  This is a "tool" available only to those who are saved through the Blood of Christ and receivers of gift of The Holy Ghost.

Why does no one argue about people casting out devils being a neccessity for being saved?  or taking up serpents or drinking poison?  Of course there are those few"way out there" groups who play with poisonous snakes to prove they are saved, but for the most part you hear nothing about those arguments.  Scripture tells us that believing on the name of Jesus saves us.  It's up to us to ask for the gifts that come with the package.  As my Pastor said just this past Sunday, he wonders how many gifts we have missed out on, how many gifts might we see piled up that God will show us were just waiting for us to be open to receive them or simply to ask for them?

I spoke in an earlier post of my Dad and the fact that he has not spoken in tongues.  What I didn't say was that the Holy Spirit is leading Dad into new knowledge (new for Dad) concerning the gifts of The Spirit which would include speaking in tongues.  So, for right now, I believe I can rest assured that my Dad is saved and has received the gift of The Holy Ghost.  He is only just now discovering the "tools" available to him through The Holy Ghost.  Yes, I speak in tongues, and, thanks to this discussion, I have a better understanding of this gift and it's uses.  Now, I can also pray, as Paul did, that Dad will receive this gift of tongues...but I will also pray that Dad will discover all the other gifts as well.  And so will I.

smiley   

[hymnsinger]

I knew you were going to be fun.

I hope those 30-60 odd visitors I have stopping by every day will register and join the discussion.

I think you got it but have to go back and read what I said about the day of Pentecost.

As for the serpents, vipers, and snakes, I believe that Paul had one hanging off his arm that he shook off in the fire, but I wouldn't recommend testing God. (Acts 28:3; Mat 4:7; Lk 4:12)

Only the speaking in tongues was mentioned as a sign of receiving the Holy Spirit, so casting out demons and taking up serpents (providing it's not Satan) is not mentioned in that context.

The disciples cast out demons before being converted (Mk 3:14,15; 6:12,13; Lk 9:1)

You didn't fall far from the tree, sis!

In His service
>< ))/*>

[smiley4jc]

!
LOL...thanks, Bro.  I was braggin on you to Pastor last night telling him that you make me think about what I say I believe.  Now I know more about why I believe what I believe.  Stay tuned, though.  Pastor and I were talking about another discussion you and I are having and I am going to be doing some heavy-duty studying on that one.  I pray I can provide you with some more fun.     I'll let it be a surprise...............

Will go back to your post on day of Pentecost..........

smiley   

[hymnsinger]

I had a further discussion on another forum with an apostolic pentecostal about the baptism(s) by the Holy Spirit, with the Holy Spirit and by water.
My question to her was why does the Bible say there is only one baptism in Ephesians 4:5.
She danced around the subject and continually quoted scriptures to back up her doctrine.

I have studied "by" and "with" and think they are the same baptisms.

The Holy Spirit comes upon every believer at the time of conversion (1 Cor. 12:13). The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, convinces of the saviorhood of Christ, converts the seeking soul (John 16:8-11), and permanently indwells the believer (Rom. 8:9). The promised baptism was the ascension gift of the Holy Spirit to the church at Pentecost. It could not be a second blessing or an additional experience subsequent to conversion. In addition to the Spirit's having dealt with each believer individually at the time of conversion, one may be filled anew with the Holy Spirit many times after an initial experience of salvation in Christ (cf. Eph. 5:18). Probably much like building faith we get rejuvenated by an infilling. Which I believe would be akin to greater faith that Jesus spoke about when He mentioned "Little Faith" (Mat 6:30; 8:26; 14:31; 16:8 ), "Great Faith" (Mat 8:10).

During the conversions the saved spoke in tongues. Does this mean that is was a second baptism, if so, when was the first?
"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body; whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free; and have all been made to drink into one Spirit." (1 Cor 12:13) I think this is saying that we were baptized into one body "by" the Spirit that we received at conversion.

If we don't speak in tongues at conversion but do at a later date or"not yet" does not mean an additional baptism but probably that the seed was not sown on good soil and requires some additional watering and care to bring an Eph 5:18 experience.


In His service
>< ))/*>

[smiley4jc]

I found a book at the thrift store last week.  Copyright 1908.  My weakness:  old books...actually any good books, but old ones in particular.  The book I'm reading now is "The Person and Work of The Holy Spirit" by R.A. Torrey.  In the first chapter Mr. Torrey is beginning at...the beginning: to know who/what the Holy Spirit is to realize that He is a person.  The Holy Spirit is not just "simply an influence emanating from God or a power or an illumination that God imparts to us."  He is also not "some mysterious and wonderful power that we in our weakness and ignorance are somehow to get hold of and use"  I thought of Simon the Sorcerer at reading this. (Acts 8:9-24)  Mr. Torrey goes through these points in the first chapter:
1.  All the distincitive characteristics of personality are ascribed to the Holy Spirit in The Bible.
    knowledge, feeling or emotion, will, love
2.  Many acts that only a Person can perform are ascribed to the Holy Spirit.
   search, say, crying, praying, testifying, teach, guide, instruct, lead, etc
3.  An office is predicated of the Holy Spirit that can only be predicated of a person.
    Jesus said the Holy Spirit would come after him, to take his place.  Could this "office" be filled by a impersonal"  influence or power?
4.  A treatment is predicated to the Holy Spirit that could only be predicated of a person.
    If we can grieve and rebel against the Holy Spirit, we could only do those things against a person and one of authority, at that.

Of course, Mr. Torrey goes on to the Diety of the Holy Spirit (haven't gotten that far yet....) and other topics but what I'm getting at is that maybe if we understand more of just who the Holy Spirit is instead of what or just focusing on what He does then it would be easier to understand the what of what He does.

As I have stated in past posts in this forum and others, I appreciate hymnsinger partly for the fact that he asks the questions that make me think.  The lady you had the discussion with might possibly be like the majority of others who say they believe something but don't really know why they believe it.  I was telling my hubby last night, after he asked what I was studying now, that I want to know why I believe what I say I believe.  Hubby asked, "Well, doesn't every Christian want to know why they believe what they believe?"  (hubby thinks everyone thinks like he does...poor fellow.    This led me to read an excerpt from yet another book I started yesterday evening: "The Pursuit of God" by A.W. Tozer.  In the very first chapter of the book Mr. Tozer states, and correctly I feel, that most Christians think that Salvation is the only thing they need to do.

Hymnody is sweet with the longing after God, the God whom, while the singer seeks, he knows he has already found. 'His track I see and I'll pursue,' sang our fathers only a short generation ago, but that song is heard no more in the great congregation. How tragic that we in this dark day have had our seeking done for us by our teachers. Everything is made to center upon the initial act of 'accepting' Christ (a term, incidentally, which is not found in the Bible) and we are not expected thereafter to crave any further revelation of God to our souls. We have been snared in the coils of a spurious logic which insists that if we have found Him we need no more seek Him. This is set before us as the last word in orthodoxy, and it is taken for granted that no Bible-taught Christian ever believed otherwise. Thus the whole testimony of the worshipping, seeking, singing Church on that subject is crisply set aside. The experiential heart- theology of a grand army of fragrant saints is rejected in favor of a smug interpretation of Scripture which would certainly have sounded strange to an Augustine, a Rutherford or a Branierd.

The modern scientist has lost God amid the wonders of His world; we Christians are in real danger of losing God amid the wonders of His Word. We have almost forgotten that God is a Person and, as such, can be cultivated as any person can. It is inherent in personality to be able to know other personalities, but full knowledge of one personality by another cannot be achieved in one encounter. It is only after long and loving mental intercourse that the full possibilities of both can be explored.

It is my feeling that many churches today have fallen into these traps...or at least the majority of the congregation has.  Mr. Tozer, even in 1908, talks about "programs" and activities taking the place of actually getting to know God.  I say all this to make this point:  The more we get to know The Father...The Son....and The Holy Spirit...then the more we will understand how they operate.  If a person only knows what they've been taught about the Holy Spirit then they are not going to really know about His works, His gifts, His Power.  To have an intimate knowledge of someone is to intimately know their qualities, their strengths, their M.O....and to be impacted by everything they are.  If I had known hymnsinger, personally and for a prolonged period of time, I can only imagine what kind of impact he would have on my life.  And then, I could pass that influence along to others.  Even as things are now, with us only knowing each other through forums, posts and email, H.S. has had a powerful impact on my life.  He has taught me, he has reprimanded me, he has laughed with me (and sometimes at me, I'm sure), he has agreed with me and disagreed with me and he has prayed with and for me.  But, if I could invite him to come to my house everyday for Bible Study or just to chat, I'm sure that influence would be greater because I would understand him more.

To invite The Holy Spirit to be a major influence in our lives is to get to know Him.  It's a process.  Yes, He calls us to Salvation and then takes up residence inside us when we answer and accept that invitation.  But, then we must continue that relationship.  Just listening to what the Pastor says on Sunday mornings is not a relationship.  The Holy Spirit comes in and fills us at the moment of Salvation.  Then, He waits for us to get to know Him.  An intimate relationship will then reveal to us all that He has to offer us.  But, being that God is considered a gentleman, we must also consider The Holy Spirit a gentlemen; someone who will not force His gifts upon us.  We must seek and then ask.

James 4:2b -  yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

And how can you ask for something if you don't know what to ask for?  My prayer of late has been, "Whatever you want for me, Lord..."  Sometimes I don't know what to ask for in a certain situation.  It's a simple prayer but, if you really think about it, it's a gutsy prayer.  It's stepping off that ledge where you control what comes to you.  I had to reason with myself:  God is God and He is love.  There is nothing scary about God.  So...why wouldn't I want everything He has to offer me?  When it comes to the Holy Spirit, I quickly confess I don't understand a lot...by I'm seeking more and more of an intimate knowledge, through God's Word but also through experience.  I don't want to say to someone that I believe in "this" or "that" because that is what my denomination believes.  I want to say "I know that I know 'this' because that is what God's Word says and that is what I have experienced for myself."

This whole discussion of The Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues and baptizing by The Holy Spirit must be experienced.  I know that speaking in tongues is real because I've done it.  My hope is that this discussion would move others to begin to nurture their relationship with The Holy Spirit...to complete their relationship with God.  If we believe the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity, then to not know one part is to not know the whole.  Once people start finding out for themselves, then a better discussion can be made.

smiley     

[hymnsinger]

Excellent Post!
Thanks for having this post in both pertinent topics
Good argument for the Holy Spirit being God.
This seem to be the hardest character (personage) of God to accept by some doctrines.
The Father and the Son seem debatable, but the Holy Spirit is NOT a person to their doctrine and not debatable.
The power of God as they regard Him can be manifested in various gifts without actually being God.

Thanks for the testimony and flattery, you know you can always invite my teacher to your home. The Holy Spirit!

In His service
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[hymnsinger]

I watched a program on TV last Sunday and they think that "tongues" is Eastern mysticism and the Pentecost experience was everyone speaking in a known foreign language.

Sort of shot my whole page of posts down.

But, I won't lose any sleep over it, because I know I am right. The Bible teaches speaking in tongues that needs the interpretation by the Holy Spirit or Speaking in a prayer language that comes from Him and NO man understands.

In His service

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[hymnsinger]

I watched 2 pastors stumble through 1 Corinthians 14 trying to explain something that totally escaped them. The Holy Spirit.

They tried to explain by using head knowledge and finally decided that "their" congregation should quench the Spirit rather than submitting. If the Spirit "...works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills." (1 Cor 12:11) He has to have permission from the pastors first. If anyone has a message the pastors have to make sure the Spirit knows what He is doing.

I know these pastors won't be reading my posts so I won't even bother saying "Here is the correct interpretation and remain open and teachable!"

1 Cor. 14:1  Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
2  For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
3  But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.
4  He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
5  I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

>>verse 1 & 2 - Pursue love, and the desire the Spiritual gifts. Which ones? Tongues with interpretations and prophesying. Both are the same! One is for the unbelievers and one is for the believers. We'll get to that in verse 22.

Speaks mysteries? Greek word for mysteries! {{propheteuo, prof-ate-yoo'-o; from G4396; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office:--prophesy.}} Say again in teachable english? "however, in the spirit he prophesies."  Using head knowledge and trying to bypass the power of the Holy Spirit is not only heresy, but blasphemy.

>>verses 3 to 5 - Remembering there are different kinds of "tongues" here Paul reverts to "praying in the Spirit." Speaking to God in Tongues. He edifies himself, like recharging a battery, an Eph 5:18 experience. also remembering that speaking in tongues with interpretation IS prophesying. It edifies the church, "...to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues." [1 cor 12:10] or more correctly translated "to another a different kind of tongue," One that is manifested by the Holy Spirit for interpretation. The Holy Spirit gives a believer a message in tongues (manifests). And yes, it is for the church!
To another the interpretation of this message, again by the Holy Spirit for the church. How can any pastor misinterpret this simple scripture, unless he is a false prophet. In verse 5 Paul states that "UNLESS indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification." Now this kind of tongues is no longer a prayer language, but a prophetic message from the Father through His Holy Spirit for His children, the church.

Ephesians 5:18 - "And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit," {{4137. pleroo, play-ro'-o; from G4134; to make replete, i.e. (lit.) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (fig.) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:--accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.}}

"6  But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching?
7  Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played?
8  For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare himself for battle?
9  So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.
10  There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance.
11  Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.
12  Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.
13  Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret."

>>This whole passage can be summed up by simply stating that "pray that he may interpret" that this kind of tongue is now in a language we can understand. Paul is now speaking by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching in this interpreted tongue. As revelation because it was a manifestation of the Holy Spirit from the Father. As Knowledge and prophesying, because they are also Spiritual gifts, 12:8, 10. As teaching, because they can understand that which Paul and believers are receiving from God through the Holy Spirit.

"14  For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful."

>>He is praying in the Spirit who is bearing witness to Paul's spirit [Rome 8:16, 26] but even he doesn't understand what he is saying. His meaning is unfruitful to the church, but it edifies him.

"15  What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding."

>>I believe Paul is saying in different circumstances he will use "tongues" differently. Alone, talking and worshiping God he will use tongues but in the church setting, he will speak in a language understandable by the majority or in tongues if he also interprets or the Holy Spirit has an interpreter present.

"16  Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?
17  For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18  I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;"

>>Paul concludes that speaking in church in "tongues" is senseless unless interpreted even when done well, therefore in this situation verbal utterances should be in a known language. But, he is thankful that he has the opportunity to speak and sing in tongues when he is alone. Only God knows what he is uttering. He boasts about doing it "more than you all."

"19  yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20  Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21  In the law it is written: "With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me," says the Lord."

>>Here again Paul reinforces the uselessness of tongues in church unless interpreted. It would be like speaking in a foreign language without an interpreter present. Even 5 words in a known language is better than ten thousand in an unknown foreign language or the heavenly language.

"22  Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
23  Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
24  But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all.
25  And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you."

>>When unbelievers are in church and hear and see the Spiritual gifts in action, there may be some skepticism about the validity. (Remember Simon the Sorcerer, it very well could have been this that he witnessed [Acts 8:18]) But, if they hear one speak in tongues and another interpret, it is like a confirmation. One is witnessing for the other, but by the same Spirit. A believer should be able to discern a message in knowledge, wisdom, or prophecy. Therefore the believer can more readily accept these messages in a known language.

The rest of the chapter is pretty straight forward, but an uninformed pastor can easily be deceived by Satan if he quenches the Spirit.

"31  For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
32  And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets."

>>This is important to know as the Spiritual gift can be quenched, or controlled by the "chosen one" who is moved by the Spirit but is hesitant. They are not and should not be controlled by the Pastor or his "church" will very soon be barren. When you quench the Spirit, He very quickly moves on to where He is welcome. Without the Holy Spirit we are without Christ. And a Christian without Christ is an IAN. (I Am Nothing)

The most pathetic thing is that he is talking to sheep, and sheep normally follow their shepherd, even if he is leading them astray. The constant referral to Heb 13:17 to reinforce their authority. "Listen to us, obey us, be teachable" are their cries.

Hebrews 13:17  Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you."

It is assumed here that the leaders are trustworthy and that they do not exercise their authority in an authoritarian manner. The congregation is to respond to their leadership cooperatively and should not create a hostile environment in which their leaders must grimly toil. This does not mean that the congregation owes their leaders blind obedience, however; the Christian is accountable to Christ alone (with fear and trembling). Leaders are not to dominate others by exercising dictatorial control. Their office is a function within the church, not over it. The church is gathered only under Christ and is to be controlled only by the Spirit. Those who lead the church are therefore to imitate Christ in a willingness to serve tirelessly and sacrificially in their watchcare over others. They carry out their calling in obedience to Christ and may wield only the power of love. They also must give an account to God.

Works of Satan, to mangle the Word of God.

1 Thess 5:12  And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,
13  and to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. Be at peace among yourselves.

Christians should respect leaders called of Christ to do specific works of ministry. Leaders earn respect, honor, and love through their work for Christ. Leaders must work for peace in the church.

Finally the last verses.
"39  Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
40  Let all things be done decently and in order."

>>Desire earnestly to prophesy either through tongues and interpretations or in a known language. BUT do not forbid speaking in tongues. Let the Spirit flow and your church will grow.

In the book Experiencing God, authors Henry Blackaby and Claude King say that one of seven important steps to experiencing God in everyday life is how God speaks to us. "God speaks by the Holy Spirit through the Bible, prayer, circumstances, and the church to reveal Himself, His purposes, and His ways." [Henry Blackaby and Claude King, Experiencing God (Nashville, Tennessee: LifeWay Press, 1990), 225]

In His service
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