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Author Topic: Calvinism vs Arminianism - Once Saved Always Saved?  (Read 2321 times)

hymnsinger

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Calvinism vs Arminianism - Once Saved Always Saved?
« on: August 11, 2009, 06:15:10 PM »
I have posted on salvation and now I wonder how many people believe that salvation is a continuing struggle by mankind?

If God claims that He adopted the gentiles into His family, and we call Him Father, why do we think that He will reject us if we sin?

God claims that He is not man and doesn't change His mind, how can we think that He made a "mistake" when He adopted us? Why would He change His mind? How can He make an error in judgment? Can He be trusted to be a good Father and not leave nor forsake us?

Calvinism can be summed up in the five points known as T U L I P.

T: This usually stands for "Total depravity:" This means as a result of Adam and Eve's disobedience to God -- the Fall of Man -- sin has extended to all parts of every person's being: "his thinking, his emotions and his will." God must first decide to intervene in the form of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, the person is lost forever. "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned;" [Rom 8:12]
Death in Adam's sin and life in Christ.

U: This stands for "Unconditional Election." This is the concept of predestination: that God has chosen to make Himself known to the chosen. The rest will remain ignorant of God, and the Gospel. [2 Cor 4:3,4] God made this selection before the universe was created, and thus before any humans existed. [Rev 13:8; 17:8] It is not through any good works on the part of the individual. He extends the gift of the Holy Spirit, not knowledge to some in order to find out who will accept salvation and who will not. "For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.'" [Rom 9:15] and "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" [Rom 9:21]
If God were not free to show His mercy, no one would be blessed, for no one deserves His grace, and it cannot be earned.

L: This stands for "Limited atonement." This is the belief that Jesus did not die to save all humans. He only died for the sins of those predestined for salvation.
There are parallel passages in the Gospels where Jesus declares that His blood was shed for the forgiveness (Gr. aphesis; freedom; (fig.) pardon:--deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission) of sins.
I believe Paul when he wrote "For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures" [1 Cor 15:3] and "Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father [Gal 1:3,4]
I believe that the death of  "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us... that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." [Gal 3:13,14] Which law? The law of sin and death! [Rom 8:2] "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" [1 Cor 15:55]

I: This stands for "Irresistible Grace:"  This is the belief that every human whom God has elected will inevitably come to a knowledge of God. The elect cannot resist the call. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." [Rom 8:14] also John 6:44, 1 Peter 5:10.
I lean more to John 3:16 with the interpretation by Acts 13:48. "as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
This scripture seems to say that we are incapable of believing without being predestined with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

P: This stands for "Perseverance of the saints:" This is the "Once saved, always saved" belief -- that  everyone who has  been saved will remain in that state. God will begin and continue a process of sanctification which will continue until they reach heaven. None are lost; it is impossible for them to lose their salvation. ""This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." [Jn 6:39] also Rom 8:28-39, Phil 1:6.

I believe that Calvin was more into predestination then Once Saved Always Saved.

Arminianism holds to the following tenets:

   
Quote
* Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation (see also prevenient grace).
    * Salvation is possible only by God's grace, which cannot be merited.
    * No works of human effort can cause or contribute to salvation.
    * God's election is conditional on faith in the sacrifice and Lordship of Jesus Christ.
    * Christ's atonement was made on behalf of all people.
    * God allows his grace to be resisted by those who freely reject Christ.
    * Believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace through persistent, unrepented-of sin.
(ref: Wikipedia)

While I don't agree with all the above, I do believe in Once Saved, Always Saved for non-scriptural reasons.

First, if you are not saved by God [John 6:44 with John 14:6] then you have salvation by works. [John 6:29]
If you have to do anything to save yourself then Paul lied in Eph 2:8, 9 (My domain is named after v8)

Second, I can't believe that God the Father would adopt us by giving us the Holy Spirit as a guarantee [2 Cor 5:5] and if we sin or disappoint Him He would boot us to the curb. Didn't He say He would never leave us nor forsake us and we need only confess and He is faithful and just to forgive us [1 Jn 1:8] I would expect a human father to do that but even if your earthly father disowned you, you are still his child. Take a DNA test and it will prove that he can never say you aren't his. We are Children of God! Jn 1:12; Rom 8:16, 21; Phil 2:13-15; and probably all of 1 John.

Actually, when I first came to Christ, I never heard the word Calvinist until I mentioned to my friend that it appears we are predestined to salvation. Now I was a Calvinist. I might even be classified hyper-Calvinist in that I think the only thing we need do is believe with faith that Jesus did it all.

Hyper-Calvinists believe that a person has zero responsibility for their own salvation; it is all up to God.

For many are called but few are chosen and Rev 17:14 adds "faithful"  Faith Alone separates us from the called and chosen.

Lose your salvation? Not according to my Bible! Hallelujah!!!!

In His service
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[<Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.>]

hymnsinger

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Re: Calvinism vs Arminianism - Once Saved Always Saved?
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2009, 04:59:52 PM »
I spent the afternoon with my prayer partner and we discussed this subject.

1.) Neither one of us like labels.

2.) You could call us hyper-Calvinists or Arminians. If you like labels, either one will do.

3.) We believe that God does it all. He is omnipotent and knows everyones heart.

4.) We believe that predestination is God's way of saying, "I know the end from the beginning!"

5.) Man has limited free will. He doesn't choose not to follow Jesus, that is his natural fleshly inclination.

6.) Many are called, few are chosen is a rally cry for us to get out and evangelize and find the lost sheep.

7.) God "...desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." [1 Tim 2:4]

8.) God is "...not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." [2 Pet3:9]

9.) The 2 statements above are the same as us saying that we would like to see everyone we pray for accept Christ....but, sadly, NOT!

10. Last, we believe that God does it all mostly because of John 6:44; 14:6 and Acts 2:39b, 47b, plus there is a host of others.

In heaven, God's realm, there is no time. He can look at our lives at any point. He is not tied down to time or He would be sooo OLD. Time is something he tied to us after the fall so that we would not be able to live forever in this earthly tent.

In His service
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[<Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.>]

hymnsinger

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Re: Calvinism vs Arminianism - Once Saved Always Saved?
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2009, 01:10:35 PM »
After the last post, I reread it and thought about 2 Peter 3:9 and have come to an alternate conclusion besides God wanting all to come to salvation. My thoughts are a new thread about new heaven and earth

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hymnsinger

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Re: Calvinism vs Arminianism - Once Saved Always Saved?
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2009, 11:26:44 PM »
"For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lor"For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." [Romans 8:38, 39]

I had a long discussion with a retired Pentecostal pastor on OSAS and my first question to him was, "What does Romans 8:35-39 mean when it says nothing can separate us from the love of God?"

He said "we can choose to walk away."

I replied, "Aren't we created things as Paul said in verse 38 and 39?"

He tried to bring in other scriptures from Hebrews 6 and 10, and 2 Peter 2, but I said lets stick to the clear scripture here and reconcile the ambiguous ones to it. In other words, let's let the Bible interpret itself.

He insisted that other created beings did not include us. uhmm.

Regardless of my arguments, we agreed to disagree and left the subject unresolved. But, I pray that he will open his eyes and heart and know that once the God who is LOVE accepts us we are His according to the Bible.

"'And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one.'" [John 10:38, 39]

As for the other scriptures:
2 Peter 2:22  refers to unclean animals, pigs and dogs, and that definitely cannot be referring to the born again believers.

Hebrews 6:4-6 is a  much-debated passage has been understood in several ways.

Quote
* Arminians hold that the people described in these verses are Christians who actually lose their salvation. If this be so, notice that the passage also teaches that it is impossible to be saved a second time.
* Some hold that the passage refers not to genuine believers but to those who only profess to be believers. Thus the phrases in verses 4-5 are understood to refer to experiences short of salvation (cf. v. 9). The "falling away" is from the knowledge of the truth, not personal possession of it.
* Others understand the passage to be a warning to genuine believers to urge them on in Christian growth and maturity. To "fall away" is impossible (since, according to this view, true believers are eternally secure), but the phrase is placed in the sentence to strengthen the warning. It is similar to saying something like this to a class of students: "It is impossible for a student, once enrolled in this course, if he turns the clock back which cannot be done, to start the course over. Therefore, let all students go on to deeper knowledge." In this view the phrases in verses 4-5 are understood to refer to the conversion experience. Notice how the words "enlightened" (10:32), "taste" (2:9), and "partakers" ("share," 12:10) are used elsewhere in Hebrews of genuine experiences.
(Ryrie notes)

Hebrews 10:26-29 talks about sinning willfully. Remembering that this is a letter written to the Hebrews, the background is the defiant sin of Num. 15:30-31 for which there was no propitiatory offering. there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. If a person rejects the truth of Christ's death for sin, there is no other sacrifice for sin available and no other way to come to God. Here he is explaining that sacrifices and the law cannot save you only the blood of the One they rejected. The blood of Jesus is not a common thing. Only judgment remains. So I think what is happening here is the new Hebrew believers are attending temple on Saturday (the Sabbath) and attending the Christian congregation on Sunday. But they are still presenting their animal sacrifices for sins that the blood of Jesus already paid for, Once for ALL, (v. 10) not appreciating that "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins." All sins are paid in full...Once for all! Their animal sacrifices are a carry over from their Jewish heritage and they're not fully understanding that counting the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, he has insulted the Spirit of Grace?" (v. 29 ) How much worse punishment? It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (vv. 29a, 31)

If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed. [1 Tim 4:6]

In His Service
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hymnsinger

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Re: Calvinism vs Arminianism - Once Saved Always Saved?
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2010, 07:18:21 PM »
I had a long debate with several "work for your salvation" people on another forum. I call them that because if you don't believe in OSAS, then you have to believe you have to work for your salvation.
Bad, lose Spirit, good, Spirit back, bad, Spirit gone, good Spirit back.

Uuhm. seems like God can't make up His mind, because He knows what we are going to do in every given circumstance and to be vindictive and punish us with the loss of salvation and require us work to earn back Grace is not scriptural.
Their arguments start with Rom 8:28-30 from the renowned CEV. A paraphrased version that is more a commentary by the translators.

"We know that God is always at work for the good of everyone who loves him. They are the ones God has chosen for his purpose, and he has always known who his chosen ones would be. He had decided to let them become like his own Son, so that his Son would be the first of many children. God then accepted the people he had already decided to choose, and he has shared his glory with them."
They state that we choose whom we will serve. I have no truck with that as most believe that we have free choice BEFORE we are saved.

Rom 9:13 "As it is written, 'Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.'" is referring to the nations, not the persons as indicated from the referrenced verse in Malachi 1:2,3.
So what? One is chosen, and the other is not chosen. God's graciousness, mercy, and compassion are far above and beyond human understanding. Through election He works freely to achieve His just and loving purposes. Those purposes are not limited to one people but extend to all nations.

Human arguments can try to prove God unjust because He chooses to save some but not all. Only through a selfish attitude on our part could we complain about how God has shown His love and mercy. God's sovereign love is the explanation for His choice of Jacob over Esau in earlier times and for what He was doing in Paul's time to develop a people for Himself. As sovereign Lord, Creator of all things, He has the perfect right to plan and work in His world according to His own purposes. His purpose could be one of total destruction. Instead, He chose in love to work out a way to save those who believe.
Reminds me of a story told by Spurgeon when questioned on this subject. His response was, "If a rich widow having no children went to an orphanage and chose only half the orphans. Would we say she was good for adopting some or would we say she was unjust for only taking half?" Interesting.

Next scripture Rom 9:18, (they neglected verse 17) "Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens." Their claim is that is was the circumstance not pharaohs heart that God hardened. Similar to a lump of pottery clay and a lump of wax placed in the sun. Same sun different substance. One is hardened and the other is softened. Pharaoh responded through pride rather than humiliation. His choice. God knew his heart and how he would respond therefore He said He would harden Pharaoh's heart. A bit of a stretch, but how does that relate to works vs grace? God still chose who He would love and who He would hate.

Would you believe that they said that if God took away choice He would be an accessory to sin by not providing salvation to all.

John 6:37 and 10:27. Here God is not saying you don't have freedom but that He can be trusted. He will not force you to stay with Him. That would be forcible confinement. What?

Luke 8:13. If you have never been to a city, can you leave? This verse shows that you must be able to leave Christ's grace. Even Satan understands that the fate of the kingdom of God resides in the understanding of the Word in the human heart. Satan seeks to make us ignore or not listen to God's Word. He wants to divert us from God's message of salvation. Maybe these are those that heard a different gospel and accepted it to find it had no foundation.

There are many cases of people accepting Christ as Lord and yet live like the devil. Charlie Sheen claims he was born again at a Billy Graham crusade. Was it hype or real? Paris Hilton claims she accepted Christ while serving time. It was accepted with joy at the time but didn't serve them in their world. Was it real? There are always seekers of God in times of need. Some even choosing Hinduism, Sihkism, etc. They then choose Christianity as just another religion. Not a relationship with the Master. When the circumstances of need are removed so is the need for a Savior.

Here are some of the scriptures they threw in to say means that we can lose our salvation. I think it just means that no one is really secure in the knowledge of God's judgment. If you think that you know for sure, then read Matt 7:21-23 again.
1 Tim 4:1; 2 Tim 4:10; 1 Cor 9:27; 10:12 and 15:2; 1 John 2:3; Heb 10:38; 2 Peter 2:20, 21. They say all these scriptures indicate that we can lose our salvation. I say it just means that we can never be sure. Only God knows who He has predestined to eternal glory.

A lot of Christians will argue with me, but they have no answer to the above scriptures. I just know what I said in the beginning. If we are NOT saved by grace through faith, then we are saved by works and Jesus died for nothing and God is impotent.

In His service
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hymnsinger

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Re: Calvinism vs Arminianism - Once Saved Always Saved?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2011, 11:56:27 PM »
Pastor Mike Webb stated that God is not sovereign or there would be no sickness, no tears, no free will.

Well God is sovereign and is in control of everything.

The Bible says He even opens and closes wombs. To me that means that if a sperm encountered an egg it could do nothing without God's intervention. Period!

Pastor Mike stated that if God chose who would be saved and wouldn't be saved He wouldn't be sovereign if He couldn't save every one. He again uses the same 2 scriptures I mentioned in previous posts about God "wanting" everyone to be saved. (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9)

If this were the case then we wouldn't need Jesus. God the Father could have made it so. He IS Sovereign!

As for predestination. Let's see what Jesus had to say:
"All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left." (Mat. 25:32, 33)

Jesus is the shepherd, not the goatherd, who gathers His sheep and separates them from the goats.

Now everyone knows that we, as evangelists, are to seek the lost SHEEP, not try to convert goats. Sheep and goats are different and no amount of cleaning will make them sheep. A sheep sticks to one diet (the Word of God), a goat will feed on anything. (false doctrine)

It would appear that God has designated (predestined) some to be sheep, and some to be goats.

Some theologians say that this is referring to the gentiles in the end time. Well, I say it doesn't matter who it is referring to. They are predestined to different futures.

Also, the sheep being on Christ's right side are shielded from the Father by His presence. Our advocate. No one comes to the Father except through/by Jesus. Those, the goats, separated to the left of Christ are directly in front of the great white throne, without an advocate, before God.

Pastor Mike also said that if we are raptured we will escape death. I beg to differ, because the Word of God says that it is appointed for every one to die once. (Heb 9:27) and 1 Cor 15 says in verse 22: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive."  All die in the temporary fleshly bodies, but will be made alive in Christ. The permanent heavenly body. The rapture will save us from the second death. (Rev 20:6)

In verse 36 it says: "Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies." There you have it, the fleshly body cannot be planted corruptible and raised incorruptible unless it dies although only "in the twinkling of an eye." Those raptured alive will receive their resurrected bodies after their momentary death. They need to put off the corruptible (perishable) in order to put on the incorruptible (imperishable). (vv. 51-54)

I say don't be a "foolish" one because that Greek word aphron actually means STUPID or MINDLESS. Read and believe your Bible. It is the Word of the all sovereign One.

In spite of what Pastor Mike says, God is sovereign. God is in control! Hallelujah!

In His Service
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[<Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.>]