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Author Topic: Angels - Created Spirits or Dead Human Beings?  (Read 3680 times)

hymnsinger

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Angels - Created Spirits or Dead Human Beings?
« on: June 15, 2009, 10:37:14 PM »
OK - No matter what you have seen on TV and movies, angels are spirit beings. They are not, nor have they ever been human beings.

I know that Mormons teaches that angels are in fact people who either have lived or will live on this earth. Mormon beliefs are unique in teaching that human spirits lived in heaven with God before coming to earth to endure a period of testing. This pre-earth life is called the pre-existence. The Prophet Joseph Smith, who saw many angels himself, taught that there are two classes of angels: those with only spirits and those with resurrected bodies joined to their spirits. Sometimes they are visible and so Joseph Smith saw Moroni, who had lived on the earth 1600 years ago as a prophet and who returned as an angel.

Mormonism makes no real distinction between men and angels. According the Mormon Apostle, Bruce R. McConkie, angels are messengers of God who may be one of five different classes of people:

 1. ""Pre-existent spirits"" - Those people who have yet to come to earth to take on bodies;

 2. ""Translated Beings"" - Those people (supposedly like the inhabitants of the city of Enoch in the Book of Genesis which were "taken") who passed into immortality without experiencing death.

 3. ""Spirits Of Just Men Made Perfect"" - These are the spirits of men who have worked out their salvation, but are awaiting the day of the resurrection. (D. & C. 129.)

 4. ""Resurrected Personages"" - men like John the Baptist, Moroni, Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Moses, and Elijah.

 5. ""Righteous Mortal Men who have yet to die""

Now that we know all that to be hog-wash, we can safely say that the Movie and TV angels are also bunk. They depict angels as dead humans helping others. See the thread "Where do you go when you die?"

Angels are portrayed in later art as female, which we also see no indication of in the scriptures. There is mention of women with wings in Zachariah but he also mentions angels in the same passages as masculine. (Zach 5:5-10) He did NOT call the women with wings angels.

I believe angels are asexual and do NOT have breasts and hips which are human characteristics for childbirth and nurturing. That being said, we know that angels do not marry nor have need of procreating (Matt 22:30; Lk 20:34-36) because they are immortal spirit beings.

I also do not see where they sing either except in later paraphrased editions. The literal translations all say that angels "spoke" not sang. The passage in Job  Job 38:7 is misunderstood in that there is an "AND" indicating that he is talking about 2 different things. Stars AND angels. CETI (Communication with Extraterrestrial Intelligence) has been listening to stars emit different frequencies for years. Put all those frequencies together and you could say the stars in heaven sing.

See my blog http://www.faithalone.info/blog/?p=53

In His service

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[<Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.>]

hymnsinger

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Re: Angels - Created Spirits or Dead Human Beings?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2009, 01:08:15 PM »
Quote
Angels are portrayed in later art as female, which we also see no indication of in the scriptures. There is mention of women with wings in Zachariah but he also mentions angels in the same passages as masculine. (Zach 5:5-10) He did NOT call the women with wings angels.

I believe angels are asexual and do NOT have breasts and hips which are human characteristics for childbirth and nurturing. That being said, we know that angels do not marry nor have need of procreating (Matt 22:30; Lk 20:34-36) because they are immortal spirit beings.

I spoke with a woman at the Outreach on Sunday. She claims to be Christian, but being homeless due to mental problems possibly caused by excessive drug use. No judgment here.

She says that she is okay being homeless because she has two (2) guardian angels that she speaks to all the time. Hmmm! She also said that they are both female wearing robes. They have wings and nice figures. Again hmmm!

The above quote from my previous post will enlighten you on how our conversation went from there. Trying very hard not to offend her or get confrontational, I asked a lot of questions about her spiritual (imaginary?) friends. I told her my feelings that we no longer require guardian angels with the Holy Spirit's presence being in us and asked her if the angels actually protected her or just communed with her.

She couldn't say, but suggested that their very presence comforted her and made her feel safe.

Hard to burst bubbles in this instance and just reminded her that the Bible doesn't say that angels are female just because she is no more than our Savior Jesus is female for women.

I talked to her about Satan, the one who has come to steal, kill, and destroy, who can appear as an angel of light along with his cronies. I prayed with her and advised her not to do anything rash that the "spirit guides" she consorts with might lead her to do.

If you see her walking down the street, it may look like it but she does not think she is talking to herself.

In His service
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[<Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.>]

hymnsinger

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Re: Angels - Created Spirits or Dead Human Beings?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2009, 01:50:56 PM »
I've been thinking more about "guardian angels" mostly from the scripture in Matt 18:10 "'Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.'" The face would indicate that they are in the immediate presence of God.

Apparently children had guardian angels as did the Hebrews in the Old Testament. "For He shall give His angels charge over you, To keep you in all your ways." [Ps. 91:11]

Or does that simply mean ministering angels "Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?" [Heb 1"14]

But I believe that is for the Old Testament before the Holy Spirit was given to guide and direct us. The Gospels are Old Testament as the New Testament did not take effect until Jesus the Testator died.

What about Peter who was in prison - "Now behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him, and a light shone in the prison; and he struck Peter on the side and raised him up, saying, "Arise quickly!" And his chains fell off his hands. Then the angel said to him, 'Gird yourself and tie on your sandals"; and so he did. And he said to him, 'Put on your garment and follow me.' So he went out and followed him, and did not know that what was done by the angel was real, but thought he was seeing a vision. When they were past the first and the second guard posts, they came to the iron gate that leads to the city, which opened to them of its own accord; and they went out and went down one street, and immediately the angel departed from him. And when Peter had come to himself, he said, 'Now I know for certain that the Lord has sent His angel, and has delivered me from the hand of Herod and from all the expectation of the Jewish people.'" [Acts 12:7-11]

Guardian angel or ministering spirit?

Then there is Paul on board a sinking ship in a storm who -  "...after long abstinence from food, then Paul stood in the midst of them and said, 'Men, you should have listened to me, and not have sailed from Crete and incurred this disaster and loss. And now I urge you to take heart, for there will be no loss of life among you, but only of the ship. For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve, saying, "Do not be afraid, Paul; you must be brought before Caesar; and indeed God has granted you all those who sail with you." Therefore take heart, men, for I believe God that it will be just as it was told me." [Acts 27:21-25]

Again is this a guardian angel or a ministering spirit? The angel could be telling Paul something that the Holy Spirit didn't, for whatever reason escapes me, or he could just be ministering to him as the angels did to Jesus in the wilderness and the garden. Comforting and exhorting Paul in his time of fear. It depends on your interpretation.

Or should Luke's writings be classed as apocrypha that has "set in order a narrative" but taken not only from good sources but also bad sources? Was Luke inspired by the Holy Spirit or was he just another historian like Josephus?

Certainly there are truths as confirmed in the epistles but there also some very illogical passages. Some scriptures that appear only in the books of Luke and Acts of the Apostles are almost "old wives tales."

Was Luke as the foot of the cross? Was he on board the ship that wrecked? He certainly never said he was inspired by the Holy Spirit but wanted "to write to you an orderly account." It would seem that he gathered information from various sources including eye witnesses. But is that enough to take him out of the apocryphal writings and place him in the inspired Bible?

In His service
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[<Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.>]

hymnsinger

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Re: Angels - Created Spirits or Dead Human Beings?
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2009, 08:48:23 PM »
I have been getting a lot of flack on my comment about Luke's writings not being Spirit inspired.

I certainly don't consider myself an expert on whether a book should be considered canon or apocrypha. This is just my opinion from reading Luke. To me he appears to be more of a historian than a man of God.

He appeared to be writing to his friend fondly referred to as Theophilos, from G2316 and G5384; friend of God.

"Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed." [Luke 1:1-4]

I see Luke having a Christian friend and seeing the person struggle with limited knowledge of their Savior that he set about to get as much info as possible. There were no Bibles and the O.T. was mostly passed on verbally. Luke being a physician had access to more people than his friend would have.

So, I am not saying that the Gospel of Luke and the Book of the Acts of the Apostles are apocryphal as they do contain information garnered from eyewitnesses and Paul.

What I am saying is that he has some things in his writings I consider Old Wives Tales. Some things were probably third or fourth hand testimony. Glowing reports from a loving Mom and her friends. More glowing reports from those healed. The latter 2 could very well be embellished. He probably had a lot of information and testimony from the disciples and other eye witnesses which are good and legitimate sources. A better source would have been directly from the Holy Spirit rather than from Spirit filled saints. He even had one Jewish fable included in Chapter 16 of his Gospel.

I think he has enough good stuff to be considered canon. I also don't think I can pick and choose scriptures making the Bible of no effect. The Bible is the Word of God as it is accepted and to say that some passages don't apply is using it for my own personal interpretation. I am just saying that the compilers of the original Bible should have checked every jot and tittle before including books. Everyone knows that if you set out to write an account of someones life that you get conflicting stories. You will even get differing opinions from the same sources if the work you are doing is a biography or a eulogy.

Anyway this should be a new topic.

The other thing was whether angels sing or not. My Bible, The NKJV and the original KJV do not say the angels sang. My Strong's Concordance also does not indicate that they sang. I believe that if they sang it would make our best efforts sound horrible. We have something to sing about that they don't. The old, old story!

The final discussion was, can God have angels appear in any shape? Yes!

Can they appear as women? Why Not?

Would they have wings? Probably not, as wings would be useless on an incarnate body. The only time wings are mentioned in scripture is when the angels (Seraphim, Cherubim) are seen in spirit form.

There is no mention of wings on the angels that physically appeared in the Old or New Testaments.

But the better question, is why should an angel appear to us at all? If they are to minister to us, then we would have to be in really dire straits. I still don't think we need personal guardian angels. Angels are God's messengers sent to encourage and minister as directed and in the end times to gather the saints. We have the Holy Spirit to guide, lead, direct and thus protect us!

In His service
>< ))/*>
[<Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.>]