Why Must The Holy Spirit Draw the Lost to Christ?

[smiley4jc]

Hey HS,
We have had discussions involving the question I'm about to ask.  Presently I'm reading a book, "The Person and Work of The Holy Spirit" by R.A. Torrey and last night I got to actually thinking.    (shocking...I know... )  I wondered just why it is that a person can only be brought to Salvation through the drawing of The Holy Spirit?  I think, through further reading, I answered my own question but I am interested in hearing your thoughts on the subject.

smiley4jc   

[oldspice]

Hi smiley4jc
John 6:44 says "no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" answer this question for me.  I understand this as God drawing us to Jesus through the Holy Spirit who will remain in us when we accept Jesus as our Lord and we receive salvation.  Hallelujah! what a wonderful path to take.        Love oldspice

[smiley4jc]

Hey Oldspice!
Thank you for answering.  But, you must understand at what mental level I get to when I get questions like this.  I'm in my mid-40's with 7 children of my own.  But, when I get hold of questions like this, I revert to about 2 years old.  "Why?....why?..why?....)  (hubby just loves it when I get like this   )

I understand that we must first be drawn by The Holy Spirit.  I want to know "Why?"   \  Why can't we simply present the Gospel to anyone we please and be successful?  I am thinking it has to do with the fact of natural vs. spiritual.  Spirit begets spirit.  The Holy Spirit must convey the "spirit" of The Word to the spirit of a person before they can even see or hear it.  As "natural" beings, we can only present the 'natural' side of The Word...experience...how it applies to me...how it has worked in my life...which would only appeal or touch the natural part of the person we are talking to.  Hmmm...if all that is correct, then it's taking me somewhere else...down another tangent..........I might let you know where I'm going.......unless it turns out to be a dead end.   

I found out that hymnsinger/Admin. is having technical difficulties so we all need to be praying for him.  This would explain his absence here in the past several days.  But then....it got Oldspice to come out and play!  LOL  Thanks for taking the time to entertain my musings, Oldspice.  Keep checking in and let me know what you think about the above. 

smiley

[hymnsinger]

Hey there smiley
If we didn't need the Holy Spirit, the comforter promised by the Father and the Son to be left here on earth in Jesus' stead, then we wouldn't need Jesus. It's really that simple.
We cannot save ourselves, if we could then Jesus died for NOTHING.
The often quoted John 3:16 says "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
But Act 13:48 says "...as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
This would indicate to me that man is to st***id to even believe without the help of the Holy Spirit.
In His service
>< ))/*>

[smiley4jc]

Would it be pushing to say that Matthew 13, all those parables of sowing seeds, could be dealing with hearing the Word without the aid of The Holy Spirit?

Mat 13:19  When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mat 13:20  But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21  Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Mat 13:23  But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

I understand that this was Jesus speaking so The Holy Spirit had not come, but...it applies to us today, as well.  If The Word is planted without the guidance, understanding, drawing of The Holy Spirit it will come to nothing.......right?

I don't want anyone to misinterpret my question and think I don't believe The Holy Spirit draws people to salvation.  This was just one of my curious questions....Why is it this way? 

smiley

[hymnsinger]

My belief is that we are predestined by being called, chosen, and finally faithful (Rom 8:28-30; Mat 20:16; Rev 17:14b) also Isa 43:10; and Isa 42:1-4 quoted in Mat 12:18 would indicate that God does the choosing. He not only chose the prophets, judges, and disciples, but chose a bride for His Son. (John 10:29)
So Mat 28:18 calls us to make disciples which means those disciplined in teaching the Gospel of Christ (Christians).
Quite simply we are to find the lost sheep, not convert goats. Everything else is up to God. (Acts 2:47b)
I believe that we are to introduce the Holy Spirit (John 7:38) to the lost and witness that they might understand Jesus (Rom 10:14.15)
In His service
>< ))/*>

[smiley4jc]

Don't roll your eyes, Brother, 'cause I believe you and I have had this particular discussion before.  Just remember my theory:  the more kids you have the less brain cells you have.  With that in mind, I ask this question just to be clear:

By 'predestination' you are not talking about God standing in Heaven saying "I want this one...and this one...and...ooo, no, I don't want that one..."  What you mean is that God being omniscient, knew who would be a 'sheep' and who would be a 'goat' (to continue with your symbolism) and therefore draws the 'lost sheep' by the Holy Spirit.  Right?   

smiley

[hymnsinger]

If you read the scriptures I gave you, I think you will see that it is Jehovah God that chooses.
In the case of the prophets He chose them from the womb and probably guided their steps. (psa 139:13-16; 37:23)
In the case of the disciples. (John 15:16-19)
In the case of the Bride, it is quite clear who added. (Acts 2:47)
As oldspice quoted Jesus in John 6:44  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."
I think this says it all, but how do we get to God in the first place if you place that scripture with John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'"
He does not only show the way; He is the Way. He does not only reveal truth; He is the Truth. He does not only give life; He is the Life.
He is three in One!
OK, now here is the conundrum.
How do we come to the Father? Through Jesus. Yeah right. So how do we get to Jesus? Through the Father.
How do we get to either unless the Father pours out His Holy Spirit to draw us to Jesus, who is the advocate that allows us to approach the Throne of Grace?
Born again first? I would say YES.
Made (Spiritually) alive while we are (Spiritually) dead in our sins? (Eph 2:1,5)
We don't seem to ask for forgiveness first, but after the Holy Spirit is given we are converted, convicted, and pointed to Jesus. Much like the Pentecostal experience.
Hope this helps.
In His service
>< ))/*>

[oldspice]

Hey there smiley4jc and hymnsinger;
WOW! you two are deep, deep thinkers.  You leave me behind which is a little like "Left Behind" but I won't lose much sleep over you leaving me lost. If Jesus left me I would be devastated.  Praise God He has said He wouldn't leave us or forsake us.   Myself I just believe through simple faith.
God Bless!   oldspice

[smiley4jc]

Eze 47:2  Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
Eze 47:3  And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.
Eze 47:4  Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.
Eze 47:5  Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.

Oldspice, lol...thank you for the compliment but do not be intimidated as I was the first time I met H.S. and his buddies.     I almost clicked the whole site away because they were so 'deep' into discussions.  But, I decided I would jump in.  They all were very gracious, capable of teaching, correcting with love and true fellowship.  With all sincerity and love I compliment my Brother H.S. in that he has taught me so very much about reading/studying scripture and about scripture, itself.  He neither sugar-coats his beliefs nor coddles, which are qualities I truly appreciate in a friend.  He is indespensible as friend, counselor, teacher, and Brother in Christ.  I look forward to you, Oldspice, hanging around and keeping your place in our discussions.  Everyone brings their own 'flavor' when they particpate.  And don't EVER think that you are not 'deep' enough for discussions.  I am a simple "hick", stay-at-home wife and mom of 7 with no formal theological/philisophical training.  I just happen to have been raised by parents who encouraged an inquisitive mind.  Hence, my sometimes juvenile need to ask "Why?"  As the scripture above shows me...you just have to keep going a little deeper...a little deeper...as you are led by The Holy Spirit. 

lol...take a look at this:
Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

G1670
helkuo?  helko?hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.

Must we really be dragged to God?  Hmmm.....

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Eph 2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Jas 4:4  Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

being "dragged" was almost funny...at first...then...thinking about it...it's quite serious.  :-| 

Read your last post again, H.S.  Wow!  That's profound!  I missed it the first time.   \  If one is quiet...just sit and think about that whole concept you put in there...slowly...thoroughly...you can easily see the cirlce of The Trinity. 

okay...I have "gears" working too fast to keep posting...gonna have to quit here before I strip one!  lol

See you boys tomorrow....
smiley

p.s. - keep at it oldspice.  You are an answer to our prayers:  someone else to participate in discussions beside us.  Thank you!