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Author Topic: What Is a Woman's Role?  (Read 5608 times)

hymnsinger

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What Is a Woman's Role?
« on: March 10, 2009, 09:30:33 PM »
OK, this is either a can of worms or a dead horse.

Quote from the"Do Men Really Face More Temptation" thread.
"Also, you show me a whiney man and I'll show you a man whose wife won't or his mom didn't let him be The Man."

In this day when women read and quote scripture as GOSPEL, they continue to interpret it differently then men.

I Googled women's role in church and below is an excerpt from Steve Van Nattan's - Lady Preachers.

Not my words or thoughts but an extreme male outlook.
I purposely used this one because it was extreme. There is another one on the feminizing of today's church.

EXCERPT
1 Timothy 2:
1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,
2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle; I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying; a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting;
9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing,
10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

Now, here is part of the very next chapter of the same book. Note who is to be a deacon or bishop.
No possible room is allowed for a Christian lady to be a church leader. Paul was walking close enough to the Holy Spirit that God would have given Paul the whole load. To say that women were insinuated into the next text is mental gymnastics of devils.

1 Timothy 3:
1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;
4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);

There is NO discussion of a woman qualifying to rule either her home or the church.

6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money,
9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience.
10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless.
11 Likewise their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things.
12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Here is the last text which eliminates ALL women from taking any office or place in life in which they have ANY authority over men.

Genesis 3:
16 To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.

Hebrews 13:
17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

A man in the Lord's Church has NO option but to obey a woman who is in authority over him. If he thinks this text, and the others here, prevent the woman from ruling over him, he should GET OUT of that local church at once.. which he will do if he is more than a wimpy little grease spot in the ecclesiastical carpet.

Paul's first letter to the Corinthians says in chapter 11 that:
9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man.
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved.

And, who is her head?
Answer: Her husband.
So, how can a lady preacher or bishop pray in submission to her husband when the wimp is sitting in the congregation submitting to her?

END OF EXCERPT

I am interested in your views.

In His service
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« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 04:24:08 PM by hymnsinger »
[<Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.>]

smiley4jc

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Re: What Is a Woman's Role?
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2009, 06:20:25 AM »
'Alrighty Bro...I'll start with scripture and then give you my personal opinion...........

1  I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

anthro?pos
anth'-ro-pos
From G435 and ???? o?ps (the countenance; from G3700); manfaced, that is, a human being: - certain, man.

8  I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

ane?r
an'-ayr
A primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir.

9  In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

gune?
goo-nay'
Probably from the base of G1096; a woman; specifically a wife: - wife, woman.

"Now, here is part of the very next chapter of the same book. Note who is to be a deacon or bishop."

1 Tim 3:1
 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

ei tisi tis
From G1487 and G5100; if any: - he that, if a (-ny) man (?s thing, from any, ought), whether any, whosoever.&nbsp; (underline mine)
    G5100 - tis
         tis
An enclitic indefinite pronoun; some or any person or object: - a (kind of), any (man, thing, thing at all), certain (thing), divers, he (every) man, one (X thing), ought, + partly, some (man, -body, -thing, -what), (+ that no-) thing, what (-soever), X wherewith, whom [-soever], whose ([-soever]).

episkope?ep-is-kop-ay'
From G1980; inspection (for relief); by implication superintendence; specifically the Christian ?episcopate?: - the office of a ?bishop?, bishoprick, visitation.
    G1980 - episkeptomai
         ep-ee-skep'-tom-ahee;
Middle voice from G1909 and the base of G4649; to inspect, that is, (by implication) to select; by extension to go to see, relieve: - look out, visit.
5  (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

tistis
An enclitic indefinite pronoun; some or any person or object: - a (kind of), any (man, thing, thing at all), certain (thing), divers, he (every) man, one (X thing), ought, + partly, some (man, -body, -thing, -what), (+ that no-) thing, what (-soever), X wherewith, whom [-soever], whose ([-soever]).

7  Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

autos
ow-tos'
From the particle a??? au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind; backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the compound of G1438) of the third person, and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons: - her, it (-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, ([self-], the) same, ([him-, my-, thy-]) self, [your-] selves, she, that, their (-s), them ([-selves]), there [-at, -by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with], they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which. Compare G848.

8  Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

diakonosdee-ak'-on-os
Probably from d?a??? diako? (obsolete, to run on errands; compare G1377); an attendant, that is, (generally) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specifically a Christian teacher and pastor (technically a deacon or deaconess): - deacon, minister, servant.  (my emphasis on deaconess)

4  Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

katakat-ah'
A primary particle; (preposition) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case [genitive, dative or accusative] with which it is joined): - about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to, touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, [charita-] bly, concerning, + covered, [dai-] ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from . . . to, godly, in (-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of), . . . by, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-) on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) X own, + particularly, so, through (-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-) to (-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where (-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution or intensity.

MSG translation:  4  Any man who speaks with God or about God in a way that shows a lack of respect for the authority of Christ, dishonors Christ.

5  But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

akatakaluptosak-at-ak-al'-oop-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of a compound of G2596 and G2572; unveiled: - uncovered.
    G1 -  A
        al'-fah
Of Hebrew origin; the first letter of the alphabet: figuratively only (from its use as a numeral) the first. Often used (usually ?an?, before a vowel) also in composition (as a contraction from G427) in the sense of privation; so in many words beginning with this letter; occasionally in the sense of union (as a contraction of G260): - Alpha.  (underline mine)
    G2596 - kata
          kat-ah'
A primary particle; (preposition) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case [genitive, dative or accusative] with which it is joined): - about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to, touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, [charita-] bly, concerning, + covered, [dai-] ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from . . . to, godly, in (-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of), . . . by, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-) on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) X own, + particularly, so, through (-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-) to (-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where (-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution or intensity.

    G2572 - kalupto?
         kal-oop'-to
Akin to G2813 and G2928; to cover up (literally or figuratively): - cover, hide.

   MSG translation - 5  In the same way, a wife who speaks with God in a way that shows a lack of respect for the authority of her husband, dishonors her husband.

Okie dokie..........now for my personal opinion:
I have never studied this subject quite this closely, to tell you the truth.  I was taught by my mother that my daddy was the head of our house/family.  My mom always did and still does submit to my dad.  But...my dad sees my mom as an intelligent human being and pretty much lets her do as she wishes because he trusts her heart and her mind being ruled by the same Christ that he serves.  In my own marriage, I submit myself to my husband, who is honest and knowledgeable enough to know he is not a Christian and Christ is NOT his head.  I serve my husband as I believe God wants me to serve a husband...saved or not.  In the past 20 years I can only presently recall a couple of decisions my husband was about to make which I felt went against God's law.  At which time I lovingly pointed out his error.  One of those times, he submitted to my "opinion", which was based on scripture, with no anger or resentment.  The other time he wasn't so sure about it but did not carry out his plan of action, since he knew deep down his plan was wrong.  My husband also pretty much leaves me to my own decision making because, as he has told me, he trusts that I serve God to the best of my ability.  I know my husband is the head of this home.  He knows that I know he's the head of our home.  Not a problem.

As far as women preaching is concerned, I take female preachers the same way I do male preachers.  I listen to the message to see if it lines up with The Word of God.  I must be totally honest here, though, and admit to an initial distrust of women preachers.  In fact, there are very few female preachers or high profile teachers that I get a good feeling about.  I think that might just be a personal and female thing, though.  I KNOW how women can be.  As I posted in the "Do Men Really Face More Temptation" thread, women can be vicious.  We just do it quietly and behind the back, under the table.  We have a couple who often comes to our church to fill in for Pastor or just to preach to us.  Bro."J" is a most awesome and talented teacher/preacher/evangelist and I have learned so very much from him.  Occasionally, his wife, Sis "P", will get up to share something, too.  I love this woman and over the past 5 or so years I have come to trust her totally, that what she says is prompted and inspired and taught to her by The Holy Spirit.  She is quiet, unassuming and totally supportive of her husband.

The conclusion I find myself coming to through this brief study of the scriptures this morning is that through our union with our husbands and our own personal salvation, Christ is also a woman's head.  I do not think that it is wrong for women to preach, teach, or have a position that seems to be over the men in the congregation.  As long as Christ is her head and she is doing the work and will of The Father, as opposed to be only set on "ruling" over men, then I see no reason a woman cannot preach.  In the Greek definitions of the words highlighted above, I surmise that anyone can aspire to the office of "bishop" (whosoever will).  I do think it is highly important to make sure this is a God-calling and not of a person's own lust for power.  But that would hold for men as well as women.

One little side note to all this:  In 1 Tim. 3:4 it states that the bishop should make sure he can rule his own household.  If Mr. Van Natten is going to go by the "letter of the law" then I think a long hard look should be taken at some of the "PK's" (Preacher's Kids) in the church.  I hate generalizations, but every PK I've ever known was pretty rough, wild, spoiled, bratty or just plain weird.  You don't even want to know the things I was taught by a preacher's daughter when I was very young.   :o  So, Mr. Van Natten, if you're going to throw a stone at women preachers you might want to pocket a few extra for those preachers with them wild kids.

How'd I do, Brother?   ;)

smiley  ;D

hymnsinger

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Re: What Is a Woman's Role?
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2009, 08:19:08 PM »
You done good! I agree that there has to be ground tempered by the fruit of the Spirit which I believe has escaped Mr. van Nattan.

That's the positive, now I ask the question. How can you say "I listen to the message to see if it lines up with The Word of God" when the first thing it doesn't line up with is the word of God, that women are not to preach? (God's Word 1 Tim 2:12).

Why is this scripture so important? Because it takes us out of the Garden east of Eden where man's headship was usurped by Satan and woman was deceived (God's Word Gen 3:13; 1 Tim 2:14; 2 Cor 11:3)

If God clearly said that man shall rule over woman, be head over her, then why do women interpret the Bible to include them in ministry that was clearly set aside for man?  (Gen 3:16; 1 Cor 11:3)

In your interpretation you cannot make the scripture gender neutral when the context of the message is clearly masculine. In the first 3 verses of 1 Cor 11 it is clear that they are saying man is head. In 1 Timothy he is clear that women are not to be head over man which lines up with Genesis and these scriptures in Paul's letters.

In the Bishop position it is clear that they are saying (certain, specific) man is to have one (certain, specific woman) wife. Which would preclude it from being feminine unless there were same sex marriages when Paul wrote this.
The definition is first after the Greek word then everything following the colon is the word translated and used in different passages. i.e. deaconess was used of "Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea," (Rom 16:1) This is the proper translation in this context as it is showing that she is a servant of the church, a deaconess. The could also be the correct translation for men that they are to be servants of the church, but they are also in charge of certain ministries which would exclude women from participating in this capacity and holding this position.

Why can't women see that there is fewer answered prayers because they refuse to cover their heads in obedience to God's will. When you said Christ is head over woman also you must have glossed over verse 7 which says "For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man."

Paul insists that women who pray or prophesy in the church do so with covered heads. The rationale is as follows:
 (1) The covered head was the symbol of a woman's submission to her own husband.
 (2) To fail to acknowledge publicly this headship was a disgrace of such magnitude as to be equal to having a shorn head, which in antiquity was the symbol of a shameless, dishonored woman (v. 6). In the presence of ministering angels, who were attendant upon gatherings of the church, women were to demonstrate their submission to their respective husbands by wearing "authority," which was symbolized by a head-covering {v. 10}.
 (3) This practice was based upon the prior creation of man, who then is in the image of God in terms of authority. On the other hand, the woman was created for the man {v. 8}. The passage reflects no antagonism toward women. This text, and indeed the entire corpus of Scripture, affirms the essential equality of men and women. Subordination on the woman's part is of a functional nature in her divinely assigned role. Her example in this functional submission is none other than Christ Himself (v. 4). Paul is making every attempt to protect the status of women in their relationship to their own husbands as God intended.
(BSB electronic notes)

I see God has a distinct hierarchy in His three personages Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
He has distinct hierarchy in the angels, both good and bad.
In Col 1:16 ...whether thrones (seraphim Isa 6:2) or dominions (possibly cherabim like the ones placed at the entrance to the garden or what Ezekiel saw) or principalities (realms of princes of the air. Lucifer, Michael, & Gabriel) or powers (possibly ministering and guardian angels)....(see Rom 8:38; Eph 3:10)
The same hierarchy holds with the fallen angels (See eph 6:12; Col 2:15)
Therefore His hierarchy is to be obeyed here on earth. God, Christ, Man, Woman.
An army with no leaders, everyone a dogface private, would not even get out of bed let alone win any wars.
A corporation with no managers, president, or CEO would grind to a halt with no coordination of the different departments.

To say woman has only one head and it's not man is contrary to the Word.
"But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." (1 Cor 11:3)

I love women, I just don't fully approve of what they are doing in Christ's name. I can separate the person from the deed.
I don't believe that God created anyone evil, He allowed us a free will with the sinful nature inherited by our "first parents" punishment for sin.
Therefore, I don't believe that Hitler was evil, but his actions were. To say differently would be blaming God rather that Satan and man's free will.

Much like someone said in another thread about young liberalized women chasing men with the single purpose of a sexual liaison.
Is this right? I think this is woman taking headship in a different manner yet again being deceived by Satan?
God's definition of marriage is man joining with woman, rupturing her hymen in a blood covenant, and becoming one.

I am glad you responded to give me an idea what women think. Most of the ones I ask say that 1 Corinthians is for that church at that time and that culture and not for today's liberated woman. Woman are now equal to men! I never said they weren't in some aspects, I said that in God's hierarchy they are under man's headship.
 Twins, equal in every aspect, can work at the same job, then one day one gets promoted to supervisor. Now in the workforce, one is over the other yet they are still equal in every way except hierarchy.

That is much the way God has planned it. The Father over the Son. Uhmm God over God? They must be equal! So, man over women! They are equal complements to each other!

I guess that my question is.
How can a woman say she has totally surrendered to God yet say "I don't care, I am not going to mess my hair with a head covering."
Isn't that what submission is? To say I am your servant (deaconess). To be in agreement (with His Word), not change it, or selectively use it for private interpretation, not gender neutralize it. (Heavens, it's bad enough they try to neuter their husbands and sons)

In closing, let me reiterate, I love my sisters in Christ, just that some are caught up in the worldly feminist movement and need to either agree with God by His Word and stop pretending to be Christian.

God said He changes not. Let's imitate Him.

In His service
>< ))/*>
[<Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.>]

smiley4jc

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Re: What Is a Woman's Role?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2009, 08:28:34 AM »
Touche', Brother.
That's the positive, now I ask the question. How can you say "I listen to the message to see if it lines up with The Word of God" when the first thing it doesn't line up with is the word of God, that women are not to preach? (God's Word 1 Tim 2:12)

Well.....I was going to make another statement but I could see right quick that I was going to paint myself into your corner.   ;)  I am thinking that I might just have to bow to your point of view under the weight of God's Word, Bro.  I do have one other avenue of "defense"...maybe.  I am going to call my Pastor today to see what his opinion on this subject is.  In fact, I must confess to you that when you throw difficult discussions my way, I consult Scripture first and Pastor second even going as far as talking to Dad.  Of course, Scripture takes precedence.  The latter two are people whose opinions I greatly respect.

Anyway, I'm thinking that I will have to side with you on women's positions in The Church, if I'm going to believe ALL Scripture.  I am put into remembrance of my past conclusions on birth control, at least on a personal level.  Years ago, I began to think about the fact that, as women, we stand (or sit) in church saying, "Thy will be done, Lord...." and then outside of church we are heard to say, "I'm going to have "x" number of kids and then I'm going to get my tubes tied."  Personally, I had never heard one woman say, "I'm going to let the Lord decide how many children I will have."  In reading Genesis, I remembered that God opened wombs and shut wombs.  If He did it then, wouldn't/couldn't He do it now?  God ought to know how many children he wanted us to have.  When we got to "that" number he ought to "shut" my womb and we wouldn't have anymore.  I talked this over with my husband and he agreed.  I must also note here that we didn't just throw caution to the wind.  There are natural forms of birth control and we chose one.  As others have reminded me over the years, God also gives us common sense and a brain to make informed decisions.  But I didn't just totally close the door to more children.  Our children are spaced anywhere from 2-5 years apart, which I believe has kept me quite healthy physically.  For any of you who might not know me, I have 7 children.  The first two came into my present marriage from my first marriage.  This "revelation" came to me after current hubby and I had our first child together.  People would ask, "Are you going to have anymore?"  I would smile sweetly and say, "If it's the Lord's will for us to have another child we will and I'll be happy about it." (and totally mean it.) This was mostly due to the fact that I wanted another child.  After the birth of the next child (#4 total) you could find me giving the same answer but I added, "Well, I don't necessarily want another child but......."  After #5 I could still give the same answer but the smile was getting a bit forced.  The enthusiasm was difficult to muster with the comment after #6.  When I realized I was pregnant with #7...I was NOT happy.  Didn't tell anyone for awhile because then I didn't have to force any smile, fake any enthusiasm or answer any "stupid" questions.   :o  Hubby was even a little "not thrilled" about the situation.  Of course, we knew this baby was gonna get here but...I mean...come on!  I was 40 at the time...a one income family...this "seeking and following" the Lord's will thing was gettin' hard!  But, through an event at church God taught me a few things and I got happy about this 'nother baby.  The whole thing took several years but I learned a very important lesson:  God's will is God's will...whether we like it or not.

I said all that to make this point (quit rollin' your eyes, Bro...you know how I am)...Women might not like the fact that in this "liberated time and place" women are not meant to preach...by Divine instruction.  But, as you said:

How can a woman say she has totally surrendered to God yet say "I don't care, I am not going to mess my hair with a head covering."

Now....let me ask you another question, Brother:  In what capacities do you think it is scripturally correct for a woman to serve?

I await your answers and will go call Pastor.

smiley   ;D

hymnsinger

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Re: What Is a Woman's Role?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2009, 12:35:53 PM »
Sis, your pastor will tell you the same thing I am going to tell you. If it weren't for the women in our church, a lot of things would NOT get done.

As to what ministries women should be in? Any thing that does NOT teach/preach to men or have authority over them. It appears that scripture says that older women should exhort younger men. (Titus 2:3-8)

I think even if they have a ministry that could possibly have authority, but not use it is OK with the Father. We have a woman ministering our music and 3 men (I am one) that sing on the praise team. She comes up with the songs and never appears to be using authority but serving God and church. I love her as a Godly sister as I do you.
We have women ministering "kids church", the teens were always under the youth pastor, a man.
Another sister is in charge of the kitchen, where men work doing dishwashing (scraping plates and loading the dishwasher) setting up and taking down the tables, I even fold the napkins lol. The ladies do the preparation and cooking. Things have to be done and we do it. I think the leaders here just ask for volunteers and make sure there are enough to do the job.

I think ushers should be men, but our church have women helping. Our treasurer is a woman whose husband did it for years until it was revealed that she was doing it anyway.

I would draw the line at deacons because of scripture, not as a personal opinion. The deacons (Greek word for servant) I am referring to are church administrators, like being on the board of directors. In other words having authority in God's church.

In His service
>< ))/*>
[<Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.>]

smiley4jc

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Re: What Is a Woman's Role?
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2009, 05:25:07 AM »
Yup...you were correct-o-mundo.  Dad, who usually will get into some deep discussions on such topics with me, simply said, "What does Scripture say?"  I gave him the high points of our discussion and told him I feared I had run out of arguments  "Why are you wanting to argue with Scripture, dear?"  :-|   ::)  I didn't even have a good answer for that.  Mom and Dad are Baptist and Dad says the Baptists are very specific on that because Scripture is very specific on that issue.  I didn't get hold of Pastor but Im figuring he would tell me the same.

The question I must ask myself is what Dad asked me:  Why do I feel the need to "argue" with this point?  And...it's not really that I am wanting to argue...there just seems to be this little voice in my head going, "But...but....."  lol  Gonna have to work that one out on my own, though, I guess.  Just where is that "But...but..." going?  Thanks for once again giving me something to "chew" on.

Your humble Sister in Christ,

smiley    ;D

hymnsinger

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Re: What Is a Woman's Role?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2009, 02:37:39 PM »
It's funny how word gets around the "church" that you are a misogynist because you once quoted the Bible on head covering. Some gossips and busybodies I suspect.

I am constantly being questioned by the women in our church as if I wrote that particular scripture. Their questions are mostly about why should women submit to ungodly men.

I have no answer because I am only hearing one side. Maybe the man is more godly than the woman thinks or than the one questioning me. Why not 'why should children honor ungodly parents'?

I always tell men that the Bible NEVER says men are to rule over women. The Bible tells men to love and show respect to the woman that God has given him.

The Bible tells women to submit to the men in their lives because men are to rule over them and they are NOT to have authority over man. There is a difference of what God tells men and women. They are different and they are created for different purposes.

God never blurred the lines, the world did and we have accepted it as gospel.

I hear the same mentality when Believers talk about God's promises while blissfully ignoring our part. If God is living in us then we should always look inward first.

If you tell your child that IF they improve their grades, or whatever, you promise to take them to Disneyland. You are looking for their improvement and they have their eye on your promise.

I am saying that we never address our commitment, but rely on others to uphold their end of a bargain. In our relationship with God we are always whining about His promises and not checking our lives for our end of the bargain. We are always seeking His hand and not His face.

Are we deserving of God's promises? Have we done just enough that we consider our part good enough?

Instead of acting like spoiled brats, lets act like children of the Most High God. If we are men, remember that God never said that we are to rule over women. If we are women, remember that God said that we are to submit to men who are to rule over us.

Don't go checking to see if the woman is submitting, and don't go checking to see if the man is respecting you with his love.

Do what God told YOU to do and not judging what OTHERS are doing. Do what God told YOU to do and let HIM look after His promises. Stop questioning the Bible. It is the Word of God. Every Word is Truth. Read it, absorb it, believe, and live it.

A finger pointed leaves three pointing back.

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hymnsinger

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Re: What Is a Woman's Role?
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2009, 05:40:22 PM »
A MAN asked me what do I think is meant when the Bible tells women to be silent and not speak in church.

Now this is even a harder question and churches have probably been struggling with the answer for centuries.

"Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church." [1 Cor 14:34- NKJV]

The Believers electronic notes say - HOLY SCRIPTURE, Authoritative--Paul wrote with conscious authority from God. He expected the church to follow his teaching. No person has a monopoly on revelation. All claims to inspired truth must be tested against the written revelation God's Spirit inspired. Paul accepted women prophets (11:5) but insisted they maintain order and not do anything in their cultural setting which might bring disgrace on the church.

THE CHURCH, Local Body--See notes on 11:22; Ac 16:4-5; Ro 15:5-7. The problems at Corinth called for local solutions to the particular difficulties in the church. At Corinth, eating and drinking took place in private, not at the church. At Corinth, women spoke at home, not while in church. Prostitution, associated with pagan religion at Corinth, and other difficulties probably necessitated Paul's words. In other contexts, women prayed, prophesied, and advanced the kingdom of God in the New Testament (1 Co 11:5; Ac 16:14-15; 18:26). The church should solve fellowship problems quickly to avoid hindering the cause of Christ.

Comparison with 11:5 indicates that it is probably judging the prophetic utterances and speaking in tongues that Paul forbids women to do in church. (BSB electronic notes)

The women are to keep silent in the churches. Whatever this restriction means, it must include tongues and prophecy. (Ryrie electronic notes on NAS)

"And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence." [1 Tim 2:12 NKJV]

Women are not to assume the office of teacher in the church (see 1 Cor. 14:34). Women may teach as long as they do not usurp the place of leadership and authority of men in the church. Older women are specifically entrusted with teaching younger women (Titus 2:3-5). The injunction is based on the relationship of man and woman in the original creation (Gen. 2:18; 3:6). [Ryrie NAS electronic notes]

Since the epistle to Timothy was written sometime after the first Corinthian epistle, there is doubtless some evidence that Paul was dealing with a particular problem, as in the Corinthian congregation [1 Cor. 14:34], in which the women had usurped the leadership role and were "lording it over" the men. However, a careful study of the Scriptures as a whole indicates further significance to this very straightforward statement. The apostle Paul shows an unequaled esteem for and appreciation of the home. Throughout his epistles Paul is careful to present a thorough and consistent pattern for relationships within the home. In forbidding women to hold teaching/ruling positions, Paul is further protecting God-assigned lines of authority within the home. The Greek word andros, translated "man," may also be translated "husband." A wife, then, is not to instruct or rule over her husband. This does not rule out a teaching ministry for women, but, rather, in the case of married women, that ministry comes under the protection and direction of their respective husbands [Acts 18:26]. In other words, a woman should give careful consideration to her husband's leadership in the teaching responsibilities she assumes within the church, not because of essential inferiority or inadequate intellectual faculties for reasoning and decision making but as a means of avoiding confusion and maintaining orderliness [cf. 1 Cor. 14:40]. The Greek term hesuchia, translated "silence," may also be rendered "quiet," giving the picture of one who patiently accepts God-assigned authority and leadership and seeks to make herself valuable to God [1 Pet. 3:4]. Concerning the role of women in the church, the N.T. clearly shows that women played a prominent role in the development of the church in the first century. This obviously included prophecy and prayer [1 Cor. 11:5], teaching [Titus 2:4, 5], personal instruction [Acts 18:26], testimony [John 4:28, 29], and hospitality [Acts 12:12]. However, the divinely assigned leadership in the home does not end on the doorstep of the church. When a woman chooses to marry, she accepts the responsibility of voluntarily "lining up under" (hupotasso, Gk.) her own husband [cf. Eph. 5:22, 23; Col. 3:18; Titus 2:5; 1 Pet. 3:1], not because the husband is superior ontologically, intellectually, physically, or spiritually but because he is given by God the assignment for headship [cf. Gen. 2:15-17; 3:16; 1 Cor. 11:3]. This is the same way every believer is to submit himself to Jesus Christ, "lining up under" His lordship, even as Jesus subjected Himself to the Father [cf. 1 Cor. 11:3; Phil. 2:7, 8]. (BSB Electronic notes)
In my opinion this is a cop-out and an attempt to be politically correct, obfuscating the roles designated by God.

First, this is NOT saying that women can't prophesy or speak and interpret tongues in a church setting. Because the Bible states and intimates that spiritually there is no difference between men, women or gentiles. Because the aforementioned gifts are spiritual, then surely it cannot be intimating that women are not permitted to participate if the Holy Spirit (God) manifests such as He wills.

The Believers Commentary says "The uniform testimony of the NT is that while women have many valuable ministries, it is not given to them to have a public ministry to the whole church. They are entrusted with the unspeakably important work of the home and of raising children. But they are not allowed to speak publicly in the assembly. Theirs is to be a place of submission to the(ir) men."

Most churches interpret this to mean that women are visiting and chatting and should not do so. But the same word used here for "speak" (Gr laleo, lal-eh'-o; a prol. form of an otherwise obsolete verb; to talk) is the same word used of God in 14:21.

My simplified version of the following scriptures is:

"And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control." [1 Tim 2:11-15]

Everything we classify as natural human nature is more rightly described as worldly human behavior. So when you women are walking around the corporate offices singing Natural Woman, think about this.

1) Women have the natural urge to be in control. If you watch any reality show on TV, the first thing out of the women's mouth is "I have to be in control." If you ask a women what situations she is comfortable in, she will say "when I am in control" God knew this before the Garden yet permitted it to happen. He then cursed her with "Your desire is to control your husband, but he will rule over you." [paraph Gen 3:16]

2) Women have the natural urge to perform. If you ask for dancers, actors, or singers, you will get a huge ratio of women over men. I think that God is saying that He wants men to lead in prayer, praise & worship singing and teaching in the church. It is nice that women want to volunteer to take authority over men here, BUT..... God wants men to do these things.
Women need not apply. This is the natural woman in you. Backup singing is a good idea. Helping men perform these ministries is just fine!

3) Woman was deceived and fell into transgression and controlled her husband by enticing him to join her. God would have been so disappointed that man, His crowning glory, succumbed to the wiles of the woman used by Satan that He would have eliminated her except she needed to be saved to give birth to the man's offspring to fulfill the first command given.
"Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it.'" [Gen 1:28]

"as in all the churches of the saints. Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?" [1 Cor 14:33-36]

1) I think that the last part of verse 33 belongs in the v. 34 sentence "As in all the churches of the saints let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but they are to be submissive, as the law also says."

2) As mentioned previously, I do not believe that this includes speaking and interpretation of tongues. But, as mentioned, I believe that this means all ministries that require speaking, singing, praying, or ushering are the ministry of men.

3) Women gravitate to powerful (male) figures and would naturally attempt to approach and question the speaker after the sermon. She is not to do this. She is also not to preach or teach in church. It takes away headship from the man in the family. Bringing embarrassment (shame) to her husband or father. The last verse is to the church at Corinth. Did the word of God come to or from them originally? No!

In His service
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hymnsinger

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Re: What Is a Woman's Role?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2009, 12:18:23 PM »
OK, 2 more emails for those that would rather PM me than to post here.
The first from a woman - Why do I THINK that women should cover their heads?
First I don't think anything. If you read my posts, I only quoted scripture.

The second from a man will probably fit in this topic - Do I think this passage has any relevance today and what do I think is meant by woman being saved by childbirth? Is there a different way to salvation for man than woman?

Ok, I will try to tie these together in one post as I REPEAT myself.

As I said in previous posts, in the Garden God told Adam (man) not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God never told Eve (woman).

After God lovingly formed Adam (representing men) from the earth, He saw it wasn't good for him to be alone. So, as the story unfolds God took a portion of Adams body and made Eve (representing all women). He didn't wake Adam up and say, go to the river a see what I made. She is admiring her reflection, primping herself for you. NO! He brought her to Adam. Basically saying here is your compatible complement. She was formed from you and neither of you will feel complete without the other.

Now, because Adam told Eve that she was not to eat of the fruit that God told him he was not to eat of, she disobeyed Adam when she was deceived by the wily devil. This was disobedience to Adam and by Adam disobedience to God in allowing it! When Adam partook of the fruit, He disobeyed God. This was where, by one man sin entered the world.

God cursed them and the devil. As I said in a previous post that I believe that God could have eliminated woman, except that man would once again be alone and His first commandment to be fruitful could not be fulfilled if woman was not left to bear children (saved by or for childbirth). So God now presents the new human beings. They will surely die and they will bear the curse of Genesis 3 as long as they remain in this earthly body. This body I believe has now been altered genetically. The first and second chromosome fused to give us only 23 pairs as has been discovered by the scientific community. God making mankind's wisdom appear as foolishness thinking this is an evolutionary occurrence.

The curse was that women would bear children in pain and man would work. Women are still doing their part, although some are delaying it so they can be "men" and work (have a career). Men seem to be sitting back and allowing, even expecting, women to work contrary to God's curse. As I previously stated the curse is now the natural self, the worldly human attributes, which is contrary to the spiritual person.

Is this still for today? Are women still giving birth in pain? Are there still weeds in the gardens and fields? Should women try to be "men" or just be a complement? If you answered YES, than it is still relevant until we are taken from this cursed, perishable body.

The angels were in the Garden when God cursed the devil and one third of them along with man and woman. So, for woman to not submit to her husband may not be readily noticeable unless she refuses to respect the headship ordained by God and cover her glory, her hair. The angels can see the woman's disobedience. This puts us back in the Garden where woman disobeyed man and where she was deceived and caused man to disobey God.

This is what I see in these scriptures and it is the only interpretation that makes sense to me.

I hope this answers both questions posed, if not, please post here. You don't have to give an opinion, just asking a question is permissible and can be answered by anyone. An email is narrowing the question down to me. For anonymity you can use a pseudonym, rather than your real name.

In His service
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hymnsinger

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Re: What Is a Woman's Role?
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2009, 11:33:01 PM »
Same woman, same question and I am going to remain civil and not scream, "Read your Bible!"

She writes "You didn't answer my question, Verse 14 says that a woman's hair is her head covering!"

First of all, I think you mean verse 15 and taken in context, you will see that Paul is saying her hair was given to her by God as a covering and if she does not cover it in submission to man she should shave it off. Some believe that men prayed with their heads uncovered to indicate reverence and respect. Women covered their heads to demonstrate modesty. Immodest women were immoral. Immoral women were shorn.

Maybe I should have gone through the whole half chapter in the beginning. Here is my interpretation of 1 Cor 11:3-16

3  But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Here is the hierarchy where Paul lays the foundation.

4  Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head.
Man not to cover his head while addressing God, and this doesn't mean to depilate his head.

5  But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved.
Women should be veiled or covered in the church. Paul's reasons were based on headship, v. 3, the order in creation (vv. 7-9), and the presence of angels in the meeting (v. 10). Not one of these reasons was based on local customs of the Corinthians.

6  For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered.
Paul is saying that a woman's hair is her glory given to her by God as a covering and to shave her head is a sign of rebellion. But if she refuses to cover her head, including the hair, then she may as well shave her head. It is the same sign of disobedience. If she finds a shorn head shameful and is obedient, let her  head be covered.

7  For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.
Here Paul states that man being the image and glory of God that he should not cover his head, but the woman being the glory of man should be in submission.

8  For man is not from woman, but woman from man.
Man was created from dust, woman was taken from man.

9  Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man.
God said it is not good for man to be alone and created a help mate. A complement not a competitor. She is to bear and raise his children, not vie for his job.

10  For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.
Some think that this is using the angels as symbolic of true submission, where they veil themselves before God with their wings (Isa 6:2; Eze 1:11). I believe that the angels witnessed the disobedience in the Garden and need to see a sign of submission because they can't read thoughts. Are we still that close to the rebellion in the Garden? Have we forgotten that Jesus died for our disobedience?

11  Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord.
12  For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.

Mothers tell their children that they made and birthed them and are deserving of proper respect for that. "I brought you into this world and can take you out!" The Bible paints a different picture in that children come through woman, not from. They are from God.

13  Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?
Having said all the above, you judge. What does head uncovered mean? She is shorn or has not veiled her head? I think this verse would preclude any thinking that the hair can be removed to uncover the head and replaced to cover.

14  Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?
15  But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering.
Already explained above.

16  But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.
This could either mean some churches are contentious about this topic or it could mean that there is no custom of churches being contentious.

The Bible Believers' notes give this explanation.
"Paul insists that women who pray or prophesy in the church do so with covered heads. The rationale is as follows: (1) The covered head was the symbol of a woman's submission to her own husband. (2) To fail to acknowledge publicly this headship was a disgrace of such magnitude as to be equal to having a shorn head, which in antiquity was the symbol of a shameless, dishonored woman [v. 6]. In the presence of ministering angels, who were attendant upon gatherings of the church, women were to demonstrate their submission to their respective husbands by wearing "authority," which was symbolized by a head-covering [v. 10]. (3) This practice was based upon the prior creation of man, who then is in the image of God in terms of authority. On the other hand, the woman was created for the man [v. 8]. The passage reflects no antagonism toward women. This text, and indeed the entire corpus of Scripture, affirms the essential equality of men and women. Subordination on the woman's part is of a functional nature in her divinely assigned role. Her example in this functional submission is none other than Christ Himself [v. 4]. Paul is making every attempt to protect the status of women in their relationship to their own husbands as God intended."

There are a lot of commentaries available that give slightly differing opinions. Choose one and pray for enlightenment. But to be safe, pray with your head covered.

I hope I didn't muddy it up as much as Paul.

In His service
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