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For Discussion On Christian Matters *CLICK HERE* / The 2 Gospel Debate
« Last post by hymnsinger on August 31, 2013, 07:45:11 AM »
In the Bible there are three (3) periods...From the creation of Adam to the Flood one race, and nationality - Humankind. NO LAW.

From the flood to the Cross two (2) races...Hebrews and Gentiles. Well after a time of re-population from the flood to Moses anyway. The MOSAIC LAW

Then from the Cross to the Rapture three (3) groups of people...the Hebrews, the Gentiles and Christians. GRACE.

Now you can be born a Hebrew or a Gentile but not a Christian. To be a Christian you have to be born again.

Once we can grasp the concept of 2 nations or races the we can grasp the concept of two Gospels.

There is the Gospel of the Hebrews or Jews taught by the original Apostles and then there is the Gospel that Paul taught the Gentiles. This is the mystery revealed to him from the Messiah Himself (Galatians 1:11, 12) while in Arabia for 3 years, probably on mount Sinai where Moses met with God through the burning bush. (Gal.1:17,18; 4:25) All the other Apostles had 3 years with Jesus, so it was fitting that the Apostle of the Gentiles be afforded the same time.

The Gospel of the Jews is revealed in Matthew 16:16 where Peter declares that Jesus is "the Christ, the Son of the living God" and Jesus said He would build his church on that Gospel. This is evidenced in the tension between Paul and the Jews in the Book of Acts (Chapter 15) and by Martha's quote in John 11:27, and again in the salvation of the Ethiopian eunuch where Philip preached Jesus (the Jewish Gospel) to him (Acts 8:35-38) "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God". Paul preaches Grace through the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (1 Cor. 15:3, 4). So the Gospel of the Jews started when Jesus was alive and their Gospel that Christ was the Son of the Living God continued on after His death, burial, and resurrection but the Gospel of the Gentiles was given to Paul after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus and it was Grace through the death, burial, and resurrection of the Messiah.

The Jews come to Christ using Peter's Jewish Gospel (Acts 2:37, 38) "What must WE do". While the Gentiles come to Christ using the Gospel of Paul. (Acts 16:30, 31)"What must I do?"

There you have the two Gospels that agreed to co-exist. (Gal.2:7)

You will also note that another difference is the Apostles taught that the Jewish leaders killed Jesus while the Apostle Paul taught that it was our sins that He died for, because no one could kill Him, He had to lay down His life. [John 10:17-18]

I also believe that Paul had this special relationship with Jesus because it was him whom Jesus spoke about in Mathew 11:11 when He said that there is one who is LEAST in the Kingdom of heaven who is greater than John the baptizer. Paul claims to be the LEAST of the Apostles in 1 Corinthians 15:9 and the LEAST of the saints in Ephesians 3:8.

Comments are always welcome.

In His Service
This is Hymnsinger
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I hope you noticed that there was nothing below the line in the post above

Jesus said " 'Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.'" [Matt 18:3-5]

When the disciples disputed among themselves about rank and order in heaven, Jesus used a child as an analogy of how they/we should come to Him. They didn't understand that faith not works gets you into heaven as they had not received the gift of the Holy Spirit yet.

It was like on the stormy sea after they fed the 5000, they strained at the oars for hours. "Then He saw them straining at rowing, for the wind was against them. Now about the fourth watch of the night He came to them, walking on the sea, and would have passed them by. And when they saw Him walking on the sea, they supposed it was a ghost, and cried out; for they all saw Him and were troubled. But immediately He talked with them and said to them, 'Be of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid.' Then He went up into the boat to them, and the wind ceased. And they were greatly amazed in themselves beyond measure, and marveled. For they had not understood about the loaves, because their heart was hardened." [Mark 6:48-52]

There are 4 three hour shifts in the day and 4 in the night. It would have been between 3-6am and they were doing by "works" what they should have been doing by faith.

When Jesus sent out the 70 and they realized what they could accomplish by faith, He said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight." [Luke 10:21]

When we understand that we are not to think like Nicodemus and Jesus is not saying we are to become little children, but come to Him like little children.

When the disciples again 'forgot' about His teachings when the "little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.'" Here He is reminding them not to judge but bring and disciple new converts that are to come as little children.

Jesus said "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." [John 16:33]

Jesus overcame the world and we are to come out of the world and be separate or we would have tribulations. When we come as little children, teachable and innocent of intentional sin, we will find it easier to live in the Spirit and not in the flesh which is the world.

Children have NO role in the church. They are the future as we were when we were children. They are like trees preparing to bear fruit. If we can't wait and try to use them before that time then we are cutting down the tree and using it for lumber.

You can build with it but you will not have fruit. Is that what we want? There is no future for an empty building that was built with immature trees. Churches should never be built with children but by adults with children. A 15th century proverb says "Children should be seen and not heard." Young Pastors should be wary of a one way street. If they want their children to be part of their ministry then they should expect that they are doing exactly what Jesus didn't mean when he said come to Him as little children. He didn't say little children come to me as adults.

When a child bears fruit, they are no longer children - they are you.

In the Old Testament Solomon writes much in the Proverbs about parents raising and disciplining children in the way of the Lord.

If the New Age churches that believe that homosexuals and women can be pastors, contrary to the Word of God, may even require children to have ministries.

Let's be known by our fruit and construct our church buildings with mature trees and let our seedlings develop.

In His service
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I am starting this because some churches believe that children are not the future but the present in the congregation.

I say that because I believe that children are the future not the present.

They are "like a tree Planted by the rivers of water, that (WILL) bring(s) forth its fruit in its season." [Psalm 1:3, NKJV]

Below is the Role of Children in church today...
Has anyone read this garbage? Read the real Bible, and not let your heart be troubled, rather than what these doomsday clowns are saying.
MAY 21, 2011

JUDGMENT DAY is feared by the world and is the day that God will destroy the world because of the sins of mankind. The world is correct in believing that Judgment Day will come. The Bible gives us the correct and accurate information about that Day.

The Bible is the Holy Book written by Holy God who is the Creator of this beautiful world. The Holy Bible is without question a very ancient book, having been completed about 1,900 years ago. In its original languages (mostly Hebrew and Greek) it has never been changed, and each and every word in the original languages is from the mouth of God. The Bible is divided into two parts (the Old Testament and the New Testament), with each part divided into many books. Each book is divided into chapters, and each chapter is divided into verses. One of the books is named Second Timothy (2 Timothy). In Chapter 3, verse 16 (2 Timothy 3:16) of this book Holy God tells us:

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

In Jeremiah 36:1-4 God gives an example of how the Bible was written:

And it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that this word came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day. It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin. Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the LORD, which He had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book [the roll of the book is the Bible].

Holy God is far, far greater than our human minds can even begin to explain or understand. In Genesis 1:1 God declares:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth

The Holy Bible is a book written to us so that we can know that Holy God created this beautiful universe, including all of its plants and animals, birds and sea creatures, and mankind who was created to rule this earth. Indeed there is no being of any kind that can compare with Holy God, who simply by speaking brought every kind of plant, animal, sea creature, and mankind, sun, stars, etc., into existence. For example, Holy God tells us in His Holy Bible in Genesis 1:24-26:
And God said, let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

The people of the earth, which we call mankind, were created to rule over this earth. God gave laws by which we can live as happily and wisely as possible. He warns, however, that the breaking of those laws is sin, and sin will bring punishment from God. The Bible declares in Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death.

The Bible teaches there is only one God. The Bible says in Deuteronomy 4:39:

Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Because God is so great and glorious He calls Himself by many different names. Each name tells us something about the glorious character and nature of God. Thus in the Bible we find such names as God, Jehovah, Christ, Jesus, Lord, Allah, Holy Spirit, Savior, etc. Names such as Jehovah, Jesus, Savior, and Christ particularly point to God as the only means by which forgiveness from all of our sins and eternal life can be obtained by God's merciful and glorious actions. For more information on this subject, you may request a free copy of I Hope God Will Save Me.

Many books have been written about the Bible, or are regarded as additions to the Bible, like the Koran or the Book of Mormon. But however old or prestigious or well- accepted as a holy book they may be, no book other than the Bible is written by God Himself, and is Holy as the Bible is Holy. God warns in Revelation 22:18:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.

The word plagues in this verse refers to the punishment of death and destruction that will come upon all those who sin. The Bible teaches that even though God loves this world, which He in His infinite wisdom created, the law of God requires that those who sin must be punished by death. The Bible says in Ezekiel 18:20: The soul that sinneth, it shall die. In Romans 3:10 the Bible declares: There is none righteous [has not sinned], no, not one.

God must also obey His law and therefore, since all the people of the world are sinners, He finally must destroy the world. It is evident that sin in the world has become very great. The Bible warns in Jeremiah 25:33:
And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

However, the Holy Bible tells us that Holy God is a God of great mercy, compassion and love. That is why He has given us in advance of the destruction the exact time of the Day of Judgment. The Bible tells us in Amos 3:7:

Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but He revealeth his secret unto His servants the prophets.

Consequently we now can know from the Bible the exact time and many details of God's destruction plan that is to come upon the whole world.

While there is still time we can very humbly cry to God for His gracious mercy. Maybe, since God is such a merciful God, He might forgive someone who is humbly pleading with God for mercy. God promises for example in Zephaniah 2:3:

Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought His judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.

Holy God demonstrates for us that He is completely able to bring destruction on this whole world because of sin. The Holy Bible informs us of this awesome fact in Genesis 6:12-13:

And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

By careful study of the Bible we learn that in the year 4990 B.C. (Before Christ) God brought a flood of water and destroyed the entire earth except for eight people and the animals that were with them. They were not destroyed because God brought them into the safety of the ark. Their leader, Noah, had obeyed God's command to build a huge boat, called an ark, about 450 feet (137 meters) long.

The Holy Bible tells us in Hebrews 11:7:
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Seven days before the beginning of the Flood that completely covered the entire earth, God commanded Noah to warn the peoples of the world that they had seven days to get into the safety of the ark. The Holy Bible tells us that on the 17th day of the 2nd month of that year God shut the door of the ark. Then, the Flood began to completely cover the entire earth.

About 5,000 years later God wrote in His Holy Bible in 2 Peter Chapter 3 about this worldwide destruction by water in the days of Noah. In the same chapter He also warned that the time would come when Holy God would destroy the whole world by fire. Our entire universe would be forever destroyed. In between these two declarations of worldwide destruction that would come because of sin God made a very important statement. God declared in 2 Peter 3:8:
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

God had written in the Holy Bible in Genesis 7:4:

For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

God added in Genesis 7:10-11:
And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the Flood were upon the earth. In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

The ark that Noah had built was the only place of safety from the destruction of the Flood. Likewise, God's gracious mercy is the only place of safety from the destruction that is coming on the Day of Judgment.

In 2 Peter 3:8, which is quoted above, Holy God reminds us that one day is as 1,000 years. Therefore, with the correct understanding that the seven days referred to in Genesis 7:4 can be understood as 7,000 years, we learn that when God told Noah there were seven days to escape worldwide destruction, He was also telling the world there would be exactly 7,000 years (one day is as 1,000 years) to escape the wrath of God that would come when He destroys the world on Judgment Day. Because Holy Infinite God is all-knowing, He knows the end from the beginning. He knew how sinful the world would become.

Seven thousand years after 4990 B.C. (the year of the Flood) is the year 2011 A.D. (our calendar).

4990 + 2011 - 1 = 7,000

[One year must be subtracted in going from an Old Testament B.C. calendar date to a New Testament A.D. calendar date because the calendar does not have a year zero.]

Thus Holy God is showing us by the words of 2 Peter 3:8 that He wants us to know that exactly 7,000 years after He destroyed the world with water in Noah's day, He plans to destroy the entire world forever. Because the year 2011 A.D. is exactly 7,000 years after 4990 B.C. when the flood began, the Bible has given us absolute proof that the year 2011 is the end of the world during the Day of Judgment, which will come on the last day of the Day of Judgment.

Amazingly, May 21, 2011 is the 17th day of the 2nd month of the Biblical calendar of our day. Remember, the flood waters also began on the 17th day of the 2nd month, in the year 4990 B.C.

The Holy Bible gives several additional astounding proofs that May 21, 2011 is very accurate as the time for the Day of Judgment. For more information on this subject, you may request a copy of We Are Almost There, available free of charge from Family Radio.

God is proving to us that we have very accurately learned from the Holy Bible God's time-plan for the end of the world.


God in His Holy Bible has given us a beautiful example of His compassionate mercy. Included in the Holy Bible is the book called Jonah. In it God tells of a very wicked city with a population of more than 120,000 people that existed about 2,800 years ago. It was called Nineveh, which was a capital city of the nation of Assyria that knew nothing of the Bible. But because of its wickedness and because Holy God is merciful, He sent a prophet named Jonah to that city. Jonah's message from God to them was that in 40 days the whole city was to be destroyed.

The whole city correctly believed with all their hearts that this warning was from Holy God. Thus from the king on down to the lowest servant they repented, which means they turned away from their sins and their pride. The Holy Bible tells us that they sat in sackcloth and ashes. This meant that they fully realized that because of their sins they had dreadfully shamed God. To put on sackcloth and ashes was an act of supreme humility to show in the clearest way to God and to all of the people how greatly they were humbled by their sins against Holy God. It showed that they knew that they fully deserved that God should destroy them because of their sin.

But maybe, there was hope that Holy God might change His mind and instead have mercy on them. The Bible tells us in Jonah 3:6-9:

For the word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

In answer to their complete humility we read of God's fabulous, incomprehensible mercy toward these extremely wicked people. God tells us in Jonah 3:10:

And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that He had said that He would do unto them; and He did it not.

Because this entire wicked city of Nineveh turned from their evil ways and with great humility cried to God for mercy, Holy God did change His mind and did not destroy them.

Sadly, the Holy Bible tells us that only a small percentage of today's world will turn from their evil ways, and with great humility and fear will cry to God for mercy. Nevertheless, the Bible assures us that many of the people who do beg God for His mercy will not be destroyed. We learn from the Bible that Holy God plans to rescue about 200 million people (that is about 3% of today's population). On the first day of the Day of Judgment (May 21, 2011) they will be caught up (raptured) into Heaven because God had great mercy for them. This is why we can be so thankful that God has given us advance notice of Judgment Day. Because God is so merciful, maybe He will have mercy on you. The Holy Bible says in Psalm 51:17:

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

And in Psalm 51:1-3 Holy God shows us the attitude we ought to have as we pray for His mercy:

Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

Sadly, you can't turn to your religion or go to your priest or pastor or spiritual leader for help. They, too, should be begging God for mercy for themselves. This is a matter only between you and Holy God. God knows every one of your thoughts, words, and actions. Turn away from your sins and humbly beg, beseech, and implore God for forgiveness.

And, thank God that in His great mercy He has given you this warning of the destruction that is almost here, and the great hope that you, too, might be one whom God will bring to Heaven to be with God forevermore in the highest happiness and joy and glory. Holy God in the Holy Bible teaches us in Luke 18:10-14:
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

4990 BC? Really? my figuring says that there is only 4000 years from the birth of Christ to the start of the six day creation. So where would that put 4990? Before the six day creation? The 6 one thousand year days start with the 6 day creation and end at the millennium and the seventh one thousand year day is the millennium. (Hebrews 4: 1-8; 2 Peter 3:8-10)

OK, the real timeline from the Bible is that the flood occurred around 2343BC. The reason God had Moses put the genealogy in Genesis was so we could get a close estimation of time from Creation to the Flood.

My estimation by using the genealogy in the Bible: Adam then 130 years > Seth, 235 > Enosh, 325 > Cainan, 395 > Mahalalel, > 460 > Jared, 622 > Enoch,  687 > Methuseleh, > 874 Lamech, 1056 > Noah, 1656/1657 years > the flood - 4000 (which is 1BC/1AD) = 2343/2344BC.

This sure looks a lot different then their figuring. Anyway, the truth is that no one knows the hour or the day and date setting has been going on since 2 Thess 2:1-4. The last several date setting cults are still wiping the egg off their faces and trying to get some respectability back.

In His service
This is hymnsinger
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The only end time prophecy to be filled is the RAPTURE just before the peace treaty by the Anti-christ. [Dan 9:27]

With the disturbances (for lack of a better word) in the Middle East and the overthrowing of legitimate governments, with the help of Satan tickling the West's itchy ears, there is bound to be existing peace accords broken.

Israel has a peace accord with two of it's neighbors, Jordan and Egypt. Both these have to be broken before the Anti-christ can fulfill prophecy of being victorious in forging a world peace treaty.

With Hosni Mubarak gone and the pressure in Jordan, both these peace accords could be broken and the last prophesy fulfilled, but just before the Anti-christ - the RAPTURE!

Wars and rumors of wars, major earthquakes, flooding, fire storms, and governments toppling. What can be next?

In His service

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For Discussion On Christian Matters *CLICK HERE* / Is God Sovereign?
« Last post by hymnsinger on March 20, 2011, 01:48:49 PM »
I think this a subject that has to broached in order to clear up some gross misunderstandings about the supremacy of Jehovah God.


The Second thing I have to say is, "IF GOD IS NOT SOVEREIGN, WHY DO WE PRAY TO HIM?" Without sovereignty, He is not in complete control. But of course, this is what pastor Mike Webb has been preaching over the last month. Using some quotes and misinterpreting them for his biased opinion.

Scriptures like "Your faith has made you whole." Like that has nothing to do with God? Who gives faith? I think Romans 12:3 clears that up nicely.

I could go on, but I'd like to hear other opinions.

In His service
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For Discussion On Christian Matters *CLICK HERE* / Charles Stanley
« Last post by hymnsinger on March 07, 2011, 01:00:06 PM »
Charles Frazier Stanley is the senior pastor of the First Baptist Church Atlanta in northern Atlanta, Georgia. He is the founder and president of In Touch Ministries.

In a recent sermon about "Baptism: The Clear Teaching Of Scripture" Pastor Charles Stanley was quoted as saying:
When you, if you, get down on your knees tonight and pray and you talk to God about your needs, and you talk to God about what you want Him to do in your life, whatever it might be, just remember this. "HE'S NOT LISTENING!"
"Oh, yes He is."
"Oh no He's not"
He said, "If I regard iniquity in my heart, He'll not hear me."
When you know the Truth and you refuse the Truth, you're living in disobedience and rebellion and sin to an Almighty God.
You say you are a follower of Jesus and you won't do what He says? You're a follower of Jesus and you won't be baptized?"

Now I have listened to about a thousand sermons by this pastor and he has always said that God hears and answers ALL prayer. The answer may be yes, no, or wait. Which to me is totally false doctrine.

It was a breath of fresh air to hear him say what I have always believed. That when God hears prayer "on His terms" He answers. And the only answer that can come from a Good God is -YES-

The Bible confirms this in the 4 Gospels when Jesus' answer to those that came to Him was always YES. I AM willing! Meaning it is the I AM's WILL.

If you are not getting a 'yes' answer, look at yourself, your lifestyle, and whether you are in total obedience to His Word. Are you singing "I surrender all" except my free will?

My prayer is that everyone will understand that God is sovereign and we must respect His Word and Will and approach Him accordingly through our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ of Nazareth.

Pastor Charles, don't change your teaching. You finally have it right.

In His service
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For Discussion On Christian Matters *CLICK HERE* / Joel Osteen
« Last post by hymnsinger on March 01, 2011, 06:43:48 PM »
Joel Osteen, senior pastor of Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas, starts off his weekly TV services (said to reach over 7 million viewers) by holding up his Bible and having the congregation recite; "This is my Bible. I am what it says I am; I have what is says I have; I can do what it says I can do. Today, I will be taught the word of God. I boldly confess my mind is alert, my heart is receptive, I will never be the same. In Jesus' name."

Perhaps if he pulled the Bible down and read what God had to say, we may very likely hear a different more accurate message from God.

Last Sunday I watched his televised sermon that started off "I want to talk to you today about how heaven is cheering you on.

I grew up playing sports and I've experienced the difference it makes to have somebody in the stands that is pulling for you, to know they're watching you, to hear them calling out your name, to see their hands up in the air.

It does something on the inside. It causes you to jump a little higher, run a little faster. You've got a greater determination to know somebody is rooting for you.... is proven in sports. Teams that had home field advantage performed better.

Joel Osteen is among the foolish people that Paul warns against. Paul said clearly, "I don't want you to be ignorant." and yet Joel can read Hebrews chapter 11 and continue into chapter 12, totally missing verses 39 & 40.

Joel talked about us Christians being cheered on by the "heroes of faith" calling the prophets and saints in chapter 11 a cloud of witnesses.

What a pile of dung! If you read chapter 11 including the last 2 verses you will see that they did not receive the promise we have, in NOT being ignorant and, knowing that we have the blessed hope and will be raptured. It also appears that he missed the first 2 verses of the very first chapter in Hebrews.

If you look at a swarm of insects, they appear as a "cloud" and the author of Hebrews is talking about the testimonies of the Martyrs in chapter 11 appearing as a cloud. The Greek word for testimony in ch 11:39 - G3140. martureo, mar-too-reh'-o; from G3144; to be a witness, i.e. testify is from the Greek word G3144. martus, mar'-toos; of uncert. affin.; a witness (lit. [judicially] or fig. [gen.]); by anal. a "martyr". in ch 12:1.

A cloud is something that casts shadows, in other words overshadows. So we could say that our witness, our testimony overshadows us as does the testimonies of previous Christians that went on before us. I would like pastor Joel's testimony to lay a foundation like 1 Cor 3:10, 11 not a foundation of wood, hay and straw that I have to tear up and re-lay. As James says in 2:17 "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

The works done by the "heroes of faith" is what overshadows us as a cloud, what sets the standard, the goal that we must press toward. If the great cloud of witnesses is not the testimony of the works done by faith, but the prophets of old themselves, then God would be a respecter of persons. Which we know is not possible because James says in 2:9 "...if you show partiality, you commit sin, ..." God cannot sin, therefore God cannot show partiality. [Acts 10:34; Romans 2:11; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 3:25; 1 Peter 1:17]

This passage is NOT talking about dead people in heaven cheering us on. It is referring to the dead peoples testimonies being an example that we should stay the course and endure the race remembering the suffering they endured for a lesser promise.

William MacDonald puts it this way. "They surround us as a great cloud of witnesses. This does not mean that they are spectators of what goes on on earth. Rather they witness to us by their lives of faith and endurance and set a high standard for us to duplicate."

So Joel, Your father and all the dead people are not a cloud of witnesses, but their testimony of faith should be all you need to endure. If I asked you simply. "Can you hear them cheering you on?" And if your response is yes, I would have to call you a liar as well as ignorant. If you answer no, then the question would be "Why are they cheering if you cannot hear them?" You said that home teams normally win because of the home-town fans cheering them on. Well, does the team hear the fans?

It would be senseless to cheer and not be heard wouldn't it. Before you go on television and preach, please ensure you have all your facts. "But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope." 1 Thessalonians 4:13

"For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten." Ecclesiastes 9:5 | Ephesians 2:1  "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,"

In His service
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Pastor Mike Webb stated that God is not sovereign or there would be no sickness, no tears, no free will.

Well God is sovereign and is in control of everything.

The Bible says He even opens and closes wombs. To me that means that if a sperm encountered an egg it could do nothing without God's intervention. Period!

Pastor Mike stated that if God chose who would be saved and wouldn't be saved He wouldn't be sovereign if He couldn't save every one. He again uses the same 2 scriptures I mentioned in previous posts about God "wanting" everyone to be saved. (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9)

If this were the case then we wouldn't need Jesus. God the Father could have made it so. He IS Sovereign!

As for predestination. Let's see what Jesus had to say:
"All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left." (Mat. 25:32, 33)

Jesus is the shepherd, not the goatherd, who gathers His sheep and separates them from the goats.

Now everyone knows that we, as evangelists, are to seek the lost SHEEP, not try to convert goats. Sheep and goats are different and no amount of cleaning will make them sheep. A sheep sticks to one diet (the Word of God), a goat will feed on anything. (false doctrine)

It would appear that God has designated (predestined) some to be sheep, and some to be goats.

Some theologians say that this is referring to the gentiles in the end time. Well, I say it doesn't matter who it is referring to. They are predestined to different futures.

Also, the sheep being on Christ's right side are shielded from the Father by His presence. Our advocate. No one comes to the Father except through/by Jesus. Those, the goats, separated to the left of Christ are directly in front of the great white throne, without an advocate, before God.

Pastor Mike also said that if we are raptured we will escape death. I beg to differ, because the Word of God says that it is appointed for every one to die once. (Heb 9:27) and 1 Cor 15 says in verse 22: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive."  All die in the temporary fleshly bodies, but will be made alive in Christ. The permanent heavenly body. The rapture will save us from the second death. (Rev 20:6)

In verse 36 it says: "Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies." There you have it, the fleshly body cannot be planted corruptible and raised incorruptible unless it dies although only "in the twinkling of an eye." Those raptured alive will receive their resurrected bodies after their momentary death. They need to put off the corruptible (perishable) in order to put on the incorruptible (imperishable). (vv. 51-54)

I say don't be a "foolish" one because that Greek word aphron actually means STUPID or MINDLESS. Read and believe your Bible. It is the Word of the all sovereign One.

In spite of what Pastor Mike says, God is sovereign. God is in control! Hallelujah!

In His Service
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For Discussion On Christian Matters *CLICK HERE* / Mike Webb
« Last post by hymnsinger on February 03, 2011, 11:32:19 PM »
Oh no!... another ignorant preacher using nonsensical hyperbole to get his errant point across.

Mike Webb is founder and senior pastor of Foothill Family Church just outside of Lake Forest, California.

Pastor Mike Webb in his message about the sovereignty of God referenced 2 Corinthians, chapter 12 to set the stage for his attack. He stated that Calvinists or Hybrid-Sovereignists say that God is all sovereign but He allows sickness.

In the above passage, he said that the h-c believes that Paul suffered from an eye problem and prayed three (3) times for healing and God refused 3 times. He goes on to say that if this were the case then Paul would not have preached healing, but limited healing.

I believe that God is all sovereign and I don't believe that Paul had an eye problem but was being impeded by the enemy, (the "thorn" in his side) preventing him from doing his ministry for the Kingdom. (1 Thess 2:18) I believe what I do because I believe what the Bible says. Therefore Mike, you are wrongly tarring everyone with the same brush.

I'll grant Pastor Mike that there are some Calvinists, or as he calls them hybrid sovereignists, that believe this. Calvinist or Armenian, I believe that both camps have the same numbers believing that God has three answers for prayer.

Prayer and illness has nothing to do with once saved-always saved. (Calvinism) It has to do with man's sinful nature. We get sick because we don't obey God's ordinances. Diet, cleanliness, sexual conduct, and idolatry. We pray because we see our sinfulness in all our tribulations.

I will finish this response in "Once saved-Always saved"

In His Service
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